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(...) I'm not here (in this thread) to assert that we're the very best. It's just clear to me that some countries *are* better than others. I gave an example of a country that's clearly toward the bottom so that there could be no quibbling about the (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Potential is not reality. Like hope or faith, it's just something you happen to believe. And I do think you are exhibiting every sign of a kind of myopia. You should have that checked... -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't care what you *believe* will happen if you split an atom, potential energy *will* be released. JOHN (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Again, I would say that a *country* is on an even playfield with any other country where international relations is concerned. One country imposing itself on another sovereign country because they feel they're 'better' is unjust. What goes on (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ::sigh:: Potential has nothing to do with it, just as belief has nothing to do with it. It's an observable phenomena: if you split an atom, energy will be released. Emphasis dropped because it is not a wonder -- it is a known thing. Stop (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Left in because I'm still hoping for a yes/no answer. Just a "yes" or "no" without any qualification or equivocation. (...) Why? If we postulate a yes to the question above, then why should the DPRK be on "on an even playfield with any other (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And yet you deleted all the stuff where I disprove this question--it's one of your very own straw men. How can you ask, "Is this superior to that" without qualifications? Canada's geographically bigger than the USA therefore we're superior. Is (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're dodging. You say you reject the notion of moral relativism, right? I'm not talking about EQ characters or size. I'm talking about the metrics we already discussed... morally: which one is on the side of right more often? In which (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Now might be a good time for you to step back and see where your arguing is taking you, because you have wittingly or no become a useful idiot for some of the most violent and repressive dictators and their regimes the earth has known. JOHN (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: (of US vs North Korea) (...) A discussion of quantitative measures of international superiority... this is something I have to participate in! (...) 'More often'? Can you expect to compare morality (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Forgive me if I stick my nose in for a point of clarification. John, your equivocation (or misprision, if you prefer) hinges on two distinct definitions of potential. In terms of physics, a system has potential energy bound up in the nature of (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Fine. Their problem to deal with, just as King George was ours. Why should freedom be free for them? Why should freedom be bestowed as a gift rather than taken by revolution? CAN it be bestowed as a gift? Me? I mind my own business. -- (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I believe Richard's straw term is the actual equivocation here (particularily when he snips the entire post to which he is responding). Further, Larry never used this word in the first place; is not even synonymous with his intended meaning. (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Did we deal with that problem *alone*? (...) Good question. At least the *opportunity* can be given. Why storm the beaches at Normandy in WWII? (...) "Who is my neighbor?" JOHN (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Colonial America and the French during WW II were both actively resisting their oppressors. I don's see this in modern day Iraq. Plus, our entrance into WW II was prompted by the agressive acts of two aggressor nations: Germany and Japan. Japan (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What if the population is being so wickedly repressed (speak out against me and I'll kill your *entire* family in front of you) that they are afraid to resist? (...) You missed my reference. A man asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perhaps RM erred in such a large snip, but I immediately took his comment to refer to: (...) which seems to be investigating the potential of a country to deliver [quality of life] to it's citizens, as a metric for superiority. No doubt I'll (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Basically, I don't care. Still their problem and not mine. I would suggest that they have nothing to live for and might as well risk revolution. I suppose you're going to tell me we should send american boys over there to fight and die for (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Indeed. But there is enough Scottish blood in Canada to make it almost perfect. ;) (...) ...and how much of your "top quarter" supported a 2nd resolution? How much supports the current illegal conflict in Iraq? (...) Indeed, and it was those (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Larry is talking about the probability a country will continue to deliver. I'm not really interested in debating semantics, but potential and probability have different meanings. At least my reference was to the same word. JOHN (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks for trying to clear this up. Use potential, use probability, whatever you like... what I was trying to convey was the likeliehood that a system of government will be able to continue to deliver (1) higher quality of life, higher (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) But here's where you're missing the point, Larry--If we use your very own rationale, I'd say that Canada should have 5 votes to your 1, because we're so much better than you--we have (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) OK... one person one vote... that was a proposed metric too. In that case, the US gets what, 10 times the votes that Canada does? And India gets 5 times again since it's 5 times bigger than the US (I didn't look the exact figures up, you get (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I like hw you extoll the tenants of democracy except where you think it'll work against you. You have *no* faith in your fellow man--if there are all these counties, with equal voice, you think that if a vote came up--"Should Iraq disarm" that (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ...as a %age of GDP? (...) The UN is about bringing nations together; that cannot be achieved by excluding developing countries. (...) Sure, lets rank them by 1. "least countries bombed since 1945". 2. "least times the veto was used" 3. (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<snip> You've missed the point. I give up. (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What a shock! Larry fails to explain the impossible. His basic assertion as I see it: an organization predicated on keeping the peace is broken when the U.S. cannot dictate to it a U.S. focused agenda from on high. In other words, when the (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Now *that's* an under-rated album! Dave! (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't think I would have been that harsh. After Larry's last post, I had decided to drop it as well, because neither of us are going to move, so why pursue the thread? As it stands, I respectfully object to Larry's assertion that we can (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: <big snip>... (...) Uh, Lar, that may not be such a good idea - the US has a long history of failing to pay US dues. If the vote was based on current, true, paid-up dues, there would be many times when the US would have ZERO (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) One of the things I find amazing about .debate in general - that people like Larry and Richard can be at odds about so many things in life, yet both like Marillion (as do I) ;-) -- | Tom Stangl, Sun ONE Internet Technical Support, Sun (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's part of the original argument. If we don't get a vote unless we're paid up, we (and other nations as well) will be falling all over ourselves to pay up. ESPECIALLY if we get a 25% or so vote because of it. I think there are a lot of (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is it good music? would a guy whose musical tastes include everything from Bach to Beatles, from Chopin to CCR appreciate Marillion? Just wondering. Goggled them and found their site--will do more research tonite. Dave K (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Uh, I thought that was "Pigs, Three Different Ones" from Pink Floyd's animals? Dave! Bibble Babble Burble Brouhaha (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is this 'payment' to a "revamped" UN dependant on number of citizens in the country? GNP? Or just a flat rate? What payment scale would you set up to a 'better' United Nations so that all countries would be represented fairly? (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You described my tastes (well they';re actually a bit broader than that) so yes. Marillion is good stuff. I had a chance to see them live at The Chance in Poughkeepsie NY in the mid 80s... amazing show (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Floyd-- wow. Why is "Animals" such an appreciated Floyd album and "Momentary Lapse" is not... That one makes me wonder.... Dave K (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Everyone pays whatever they want and then votes in direct proportion to how much they paid in order to decide what to do. So to implement the onion-vision all the US has to do is pay 51% (and that will work as long as the whole rest of the (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Arlo Guthrie? Steve Martin doing "Ramblin' Man"? Anything from "Dr Demento"? Supertramp (as I may have mentioned), Elton John, Journey, Michael W. Smith, Allison Kraus, Over the Rhine, and yes, I liked 'Genie in a bottle' by whazzername, (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Two words, baby: Roger Waters. Three more words: Dogs of War (ugh!) David Gilmour is a swell guitarist, but as a lyricist (which is actually more my interest) he doesn't seem to convey the same oomph as Roger (though he can definitely run off (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is broken--that much you convinced me (though it didn't take too long a trip for me to see that...) But, again, just brainstorming here... Price per citizen, or any other scale of paying, tends to favour capitalist societies ("western"), (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Dogs of War is the biggest detriment to that, or *any* album. It definitly doesn't fit at all with the rest of the record! That one just bugs me--when I taped the album, I left that one out. RW--Radio KAOS--nice. Pros and Cons of Hitch (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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Argh! Correct you are... I'm thinking too much in the past, where we discussed Marillion for a bit. Of course, PF is also one of my longtime favorites - Marillion, Led Zepp, PF, RUSH, Peter Gabriel - those are what I listen to most, off the top of (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I was born in '67 so it was the '80's when I became a teenager. But I was set when some of my older cousins played 'Crime of the Century' when I was a kid. It was the first album I bought. My parents listened to John Denver (who I still like, (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Relate it to GDP. That way everyone gives as much as they can afford... sort of like income tax. Scott A (21 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think it more likely we would end up falling over ourselves to do back-door deals in order to avoid paying. ROSCO (21 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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