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> There has never been a pure Communist system ever. But the closer we get,
> the worse the system seems to perform. There has never been a pure
> capitalist system, ever. But the closer we get, the happier people seem to
> be and the better off they seem to be and the more choices they seem to have
> and the more they get to speak their mind and move from place to place and
> hold whatever belief they choose. (oh, sorry, remove "seem". They ARE happier)
I'd like to see how you prove happier from someone who lives in the projects,
or in South Central LA, in comparison to someone who lives in Cuba.
> That's a good enough argument right there, pragmatically, against communism
> and in favor of capitalism. One doesn't work, the other does.
Perhaps you are mistaking the political and economic systems? A Democratic
Communist system is possible (And, I would be prepared to argue, desirable),
whereas a dictatorship of capitalism has just the same problems as a communist
dictatorship (And, the same problems of citizen freedoms...)
> Communism is based on the premise that some central mechanism can determine
> the right quantities of everything for everyone, obviating the need for
> individual choices. It's based on the premise that people should work hard
> and not get the fruits of their labors, but rather suffer the consequences
> of the central mechanism's mistakes.
>
> Capitalism is based on the premise that no central mechanism can do as well
> at determining the right quantities as well as individual choice. It's based
> on the premise that people should work hard or not, as they choose, and
> suffer the consequences individually.
>
> That makes capitalism moral and communism immoral. That's a good enough
> argument right there.
Excuse me? How does what you have stated above the last line make one moral
and one immoral?
Further, you can show from a utilitarian basis that
> central mechanisms fail (and markets work) to maximise utility. That's a
> good enough argument right there.
I would agree that a market driven economy tends to be more efficent than a
centerally planned economy. However, neither one is a particular statement of
a communist or a capitalist society. (I can show at least one example of a non
centrally planned "Communist" Country...China, which the US has regular
dealings with...much to my discust!)
> Finally, communist states seem to have the nasty habit of territorial
> aggrandisement. That's a good enough argument right there.
Oh. And, lets see "Manifest Destiny" is a evil plot from the Russians to
discredit the helpless freedom loving Americans? And, South Vietnam was a mere
misunderstanding?
/sarcasm off
War is often a 2 sided (or more) event...
>
> Any one of these is good enough for me but they're all valid. Pragmatic,
> utilitarian, moral, and national defense based reasons. What more do you need?
Simple, to see some proof that any of what you asert above is true. Since we
are talking about paper countries, I don't see that it is possible (neither an
ideal communist state or a ideal capitalist state exist)-and I for one don't
think that we should rely on the altrusim of all people, because the cream of
the people are oviously from the statistics being banded around, not sharing
(in either communist or capitalist states :) I'm a Trotskite myself, a new
revolution every day!)
James
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Cuba
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| (...) Sum of total happiness will be higher, per capita. There may be individual excursions from the mean. In fact there better be! (...) Communism can't be democratic, freemarket systems can't be dictatorial. (...) Unless it is moral to dispose of (...) (23 years ago, 30-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Cuba
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| (...) Maybe you should have said that in the first place instead of Standard Anti US Diatribe # 8294, then. However it's not a statement that I agree with, except inasmuch as it's not possible to determine with certainty (from any real world (...) (23 years ago, 28-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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