 | | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Actually I did here: (URL) (...) Ok now I think I am starting to see where you guys are coming from. I realize I may have come off a little "hard set" too. I would not be shooting at noises, as most of your example seem to suggest. I would (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) :) Laugh out loud. In the end, I really do appreciate you guys. You give me much to think about and wrestle with. Keep up the astounding debates. <snip> (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) That's where I believe you're making an unsubstantiated leap. Even within the bounds of this discussion, you appear unwilling to consider any response other than "kill the intruder/it's his own fault" when other options truly are available to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) How about having the police services *deter* people from committing crimes in the first place. Its very hard to know when and where a person who is set out to commit a (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Thanks for the link. A quick run around the Internet finds no mention of the book except on Amazon and a few dozen rabidly pro-gun websites. In itself, that's not a refutation of the book's value, but I'm hesitant to assess its worth from such (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Nope. Statistically, the person you are most likely to kill with that gun is yourself. (...) No, it applies to all gun use. Scott A (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) That is a flawed statistic. It applies to persons that own a gun but have never used it until they had to. (Which unfortunately is a lot of people) In my case I know how to properly use the weapon. Besides in close quaters a bladed weapon is (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Well in this case "personal responsibility" falls on the person that breaks into someone elses home and winds up dead for it. The fact that the person was killed by the homeowner (who in my view is only defending their lives from the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) By owning a gun are you not already doing that? Statistically, is the weapon not more likely to kill one of your own household than it is an intruder? Scott A (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Why would I give someone that broke into my home the benefit of the doubt? (...) I would only incapacitate them if I could do so without risk to my life or loved ones. (such as a swift kick to the back of the head followed by several more to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) (URL) (...) Its right up there with the myth that police actually prevent crime rather than the reality of the fact that they simply investigating after the fact 99.99 percent of the time. (...) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Cite, please. I've never heard this statistic and would value the chance to review the study that produced it. It's fine if you're employing intentional hyperbole, but that should be made clear to the audience. Dave! (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) ANd right back at you--how can you determine that the guy breaking into your house is out to kill you, instead of just taking your television? Again, look at the stats--thousands on thousands of cases of petty theft and burglary, and a scant (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Doh! Straw man! No one is punishing anyone for "defending their own property/lives." Instead, people are being forced to accept the consequences of their actions when they choose to kill someone. Unless there is no way to defend yourself short (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Ok seriously, how can you determine that is the only reason someone would have broken into your home? I won't give them the benefit of the doubt, if you want to in your home that is fine. In an idealistic world if I could somehow magically (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) And I am baffeled at the 'logic' of taking a life over a television set. Dave K (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Well in that specific case I would probably shoot the guy in the leg, kick him in the head a couple time to make good and sure he is unconscious, tie him up, and call the police. If that is illegal then I now know why the crime rate is so high (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) (URL) Kooties, Todd's crazy FTX wants you to use your angle brackets, k? -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) A thoroughly good read as well: (URL) K (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Wrong again, John...that blaze of glory seems to have been more of a fizzle. It appears they were taken out with an overwhelming amount of force. Of course, it may have been strategically better to have taken them alive too. Excessive Force? (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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I've tried to stay out of this one because I am of two minds about it, but... I just wanted to point out to Mike that morality aside, the laws in most western countries probably do not allow you to kill someone who is fleeing just as you are not (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Read further. You'll find that the kid Tony Martin murdered was from an ethnic minority of which Tony Martin previously threatened to put in a field and "machine gun"... nice man. You’ll also find the kid pleaded for his life before being (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Dude, how obtuse can you be? Mike has REPEATEDLY told you that he isn't willing to risk his life on the off chance that a burgler isn't there to rape/and or kill, but simply and harmlessly to steal. How can the punishment fit the crime when (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Shor' duz, pardner. Check out dem mighty gun-totin' wahoo-friendly Texas gun lawz! Take my stuff 'n I gets to plug you! Dem Kalifonicaters gotta actually be threatened an like, but here, if'n an orphan steal a crust o' yer bread, why shootin's (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) No I don't care about what is legal or illegal. I care about what is morally right and wrong. If it is rape, murder, or stealing it is morally wrong by any religion or lack thereof. If it is defending ones life and property, even if that means (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) And I can't believe that you can't read. It's not okay for somone to steal. That said, it's not okay for you to kill someone for stealing. Do the words 'punishment fir the crime' ring any vague bell? Read and come back with something relavent (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) No but none of those are criminal acts or occuring in my home potentially threating my life either. Frankly, I can't belive you think it is okay for someone to break into you home as long as they are only stealing? (...) Jaywalking is not a (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Why? Do all smokers eventually do 'hard drugs'? Do all people who view erotica end up being Charles Manson? Justify please. (...) And this is civilized? Jaywalking warrants the death penalty? (...) And if someone steals my cloak, I'll offer (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) And again we go around with the punishment not suiting the crime. If someone is stealing your stuff, what justice is served by killing him? The punishment has to be proportional to the crime or, taking your idea of justice, we have is the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) A persons guilt is not in question when they are caught in the act. The legal system pertains to persons who are charged after the fact. (...) If imprisoning someone who kills a person that broke into their home is your idea of a 'civil' (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) if someone is in MY house, taking MY stuff, i have to stand there and watch quietly? I dont think so. There are consequences to every action. If someone is too stupid to understand that this is my stuff and they should keep their hands off it, (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Skeptical which way? (...) And neither do I. At the same time I don't believe in letting them off the hook and overtaxing the vastly less wealthy members of our society instead. The reality is that we have a corporate welfare scheme of untold (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Saddam wasn't particularly unstable. His actions are fairly predictable, in fact. I suppose any dictatorship is inherently unstable, but that is hardly a valid excuse in and of itself (see: all the other dictatorships that the U.S. has no (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Let me say this, Dave! I won't defend big business. I am not a fan of "big business", nor am I a fan of big government. "Big" in these areas is bad IMO, inevitabley leading to corruption and abuse of power. I don't know any specifics about (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Yeah, I was called in on that characterization as well by Dave! What I meant basically was that sometimes violence can beget peace. How about it is good to resist against evil, even if that means going to war. But I think we are of the same (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Business, sure, but look at the circumstances. Cheney was Secretary of Defense in Gulf War I and CEO of Halliburton in 1995, and in 1999 oil deals were struck with Iraq. Let's remember that this was during the time when Saddam was already (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) The Sons of Saddam seem to have forgotten that trite statement. Or perhaps, "He who lives be the sword, dies by the sword." So, yes, it's trite, but it also kinda backfires against David since it can also be used to explain why it happened. I (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) That can't be applicable, the institutions whose legitimacy for trial was recognized have been overpassed. Trial would therefore be a farce without an impartial judge. (...) No longer "if". IMO it's just a question of taste (or sensibility, if (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: <snip> (...) And yet you still keep on missing the point--you didn't give the inspectors this long to do their job--doing their job without the support and 'proof' that you "Mericans supposedly had, btw, (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) And the memory loss from the right must have the same short-life: the inspections were there to confirm the known WMD had been destroyed, and logic says what was destroyed can no longer be found. Can you prove those WMD were not destroyed? (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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