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(...) Going on the assumption that abortion = murder, your argument is that an unconnected wrong justifies another. This requires that you prove any abortion = murder without condition (not to mention you are still saddled with proving one wrong (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to start a fire.
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(...) Yes. I also have no problem with someone taking the "after morning" pill within the first 2 weeks. (If someone waits longer than that it is their choice and they should deal with the consequeces of their choice.) (...) It is a trailing (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Well, okay. Are you hereby abandoning your previous arguments, in which you've asserted that increased gun control breeds increased crime? I just want to be clear on this. (...) Right, but is it a sustained military action (a la Desert Storm (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So you're in favor of embryonic stem-cell research? That's a tangential point (purely for my own curiosity) but it meshes nicely with your overall argument. Anyway, why is a heartbeat the deciding factor? What distinct difference exists (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) That is pretty much what I just said. (...) Well the Israelis are using tanks and helicopters. (...) No, the constitution allows the government to call on the people when neccessary. (...) So? (...) Nukes are overrated. One of those defense (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Once the cell mass has a heartbeat (which occurs after about 21 days) it is distinctly human. Prior to that the cell mass could technically become anything. (...) Maybe a DNA expert but it would be tough. (...) By your definition, not mine. (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think that's what you'd end up debating, unless you're trying to create or debate law which defines the "acceptable" point for an abortion to take place. Then you'd argue the points you brought up. In general, I think the issue that (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to start a fire.
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(...) True enough. I'm taking it as an abortion debate separate from the Iraq debate. (...) I don't accept "person potential" because, with the advent of cloning, most cells in your body have "person potential." It is not slippery slope reasoning to (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Heh. Our last gun control exchange ended with us becoming pals. Who knows what would happen next? You're 100% correct that my examples were anecdotal, which was kind of my point, too. You're also right that a quantity of rifles makes a (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who determines when it's discernably human? If I put a 64-cell embryo on your desk, would you be able to tell me that it's human? Who do you identify as a credible authority on determining humanness? By pre-brain-functional, I refer to brains (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Well, okay. But in that case you need to jettison your argument that increased gun control leads to (or causes) increased crime. (...) I'm not sure that I recall a sustained conflict between the full might of the military and either of those (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Here I am a closet animist and you think I don't know the source of that quote and you think that it is too pagan for me? :-) In any case, it's not the harm, but the immediate impending action that will cause harm that is so specific one can't (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Probably a bad idea. By calling into question the definition of innocence, life, experience, and sentience, you're allowing an "in" that's off-topic. Fetuses are killed by civilian mothers and civilian doctors. The Iraqis in question were (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Agreed. (...) Disagree. Once the cell mass is discernably human and has a heartbeat it is a person. What about the mentally handicapped? (...) So the age of a person determines their worth? (...) What about the physically handicapped? (...) I (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Interesting, personally I figure after the first month when the cell mass has a discernable heartbeat and human form it should be protected as a baby. (...) It was regarding gun ownership and freedom going hand in hand. It was along the lines (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) He's not much of a debater then, is he? If you're really interested in tackling this subject, I'm game. The first point of contention is that a blastocyst is not a person, and the elimination of a blastocyst is not the elimination of a person, (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) I'm okay with idea of abortion as the killing of a living thing, but not as murder. Murder can be defined as "the unlawful killing of another person." I deny that a foetus is a person with rights under the law. The foetus is not independent, (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Right now, it is easier for someone to break the law and purchase a Russian made machinegun than it is for someone to follow the law and purchase a US made handgun. (...) Now why would anyone want a cupcake if they couldn't eat it? Maybe it (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) Oh here that is again-- And I will point out that, again, the Constitution wasn't written yesterday, it was written before paved roads, street lights, and Hostess Twinkies(tm)! So if we (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) OK, I have to ask because I really don't get this reply at all: (URL) do you apply that principle to the issue of Abortion. Obviously my opinion is that the freedom of choice is whether or not to have sex and that abortion is a euphemism for (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) " jug jigga jug jigga jug jigga jug jigga JAH JAH!! jiggidy jug jigga jug jigga jug jigga JAHH JAHHHHH!!! " :) Still smile anytime I even think about it... Dave K (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) You are absolutely right Dave! The statistics do not show any positive or negative one way or the other for or against gun control. The funny thing is that only further increases my belief that gun control is all about Government control over (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In the words of Strong Bad: "Holy Crap!". That's an average of nearly 250 per day! Dang. By those standards we should've killed, what? 20-25K Iraqis and we've only bumped off 1000? We're under way under par! I'd say that our 1000 is *progress* (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) But again, this is just anecdotal. What of the lessons taught by the Warsaw Ghetto? One gun against many. The purpose of keeping arms is hopefully cumulative amongst many partipants, not just a few lone nutters. In quantity, many rifles make a (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Probably because "'An it harm none, do what thou will" is too pagan for y'all. Besides, the former is part of French jurisprudence. -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Then you need to pick a side to stand on. Are you saying that increased gun control *does* lead to an increased crimerate, or are you saying that increased gun control is irrelevant to an increased crimerate? If the former, then your statement (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) I agree entirely. That's why I never get into the statistics of it with people. The point is: gun control would only control the law abiding. Criminals are by definition scofflaws, and they don't care about your stinking gun control laws. Who (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Just sign here that you waive all rights to any public health aid, and agree to reimburse the state for scrapping your remains off the road. Of course, this also points out the "parental government role" you complain about. :-) (...) As long (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Over 1000 every day. (...) Yeah I figured it might be taken that way, that is why the subject is "how to start a fire" (...) Well assuming we can trust the news reports of mass graves. The estimates I have read in the paper are over 1 million (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) That has always been the case regardless of the other countries Gun Control laws. (...) Gun Control does not help prevent crime, it only makes it safer for criminals to commit them. Besides, Gun Control is not about crime it is about (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure that quite qualifies perspective-wise, even accepting the fact that abortion==murder. We're talking (assumedly) military-inflicted deaths in Iraq versus civilian-inflicted deaths through abortion. And even beyond that, the Iraqi (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It's not you -- No, it *IS* you!!!
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(...) What? You didn't know this to be true? With all the 'mis'information pervading the media from the supposed 'liberal' outlets, it's amazing the numbers are as small as they are. Discernment is gone by way of the Do-do. Dave K (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Go Mike go! And on that, I completely agree. Dave K (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In other news... My SO can't have children -- she'd choke them to death! -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) For what we are paying for government, yes. In a more perfect world, no. Reality v. Wishful Thinking. -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Exactly why I called them "pro-gun wacko" sites. However I still can not find any "anit-gun wacko" sites to refute them. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. (...) No it isn't, I simply made the mistake of assuming we all knew that as long (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | It's not you -- No, it *IS* you!!!
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Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11 (URL) A third of the American public believes U.S. forces found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, according to a recent poll, and 22 percent said Iraq actually used chemical or biological weapons. But no (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | How to start a fire.
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Almost if not completely verbatim... I ran into an old friend the yesterday and really 'ruffled his feathers.' We got on the subject of the Iraq war and he made the comment: "Over 1000 Iraqi civilians were killed and we didn't even find anything." I (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Assuming that you don't infringe on other's rights (as I gather from your last comment). (...) Do you assert the right to have society pay to put you back together again, humpty dumpty? Just wondering. JOHN (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
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(...) Here's one web reference that might be familiar to you: (URL) in that post I link to a site that specifically addresses the Australia problem. In particular, your citations (which in essence simply parrot the same statistics and might as well (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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