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(...) Already did. B-bye John (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Cease fire (was: Re: Peace in the Mid-East?)
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(...) (Sorry about the butchered pasting): You: mean that I oppose the actions of both "PLO terrorists" and the Israeli > state. My views on human rights and international law, together with my > understanding of recent middle-east history, leads me (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) George Bush Sr. did actually threaten to cut the US fundings to avoid further Israeli settlements. I don't know if there were any actual cuts, though. I think that with the major US pro-Israeli opinion, it is unrealistic to think that there (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have no need to: Scott Said: "What about you, do you know *WHY* 911 happened?" John Said: "Look. If you are going to sit there and insinuate that somehow *we* are to blame for 9-11, you are an idiot." Scott Said: "Not my point. Since 911, (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I shall let you think about that... it is full of holes. (...) Either would I, but I don't know all that much about it. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Cease fire (was: Re: Peace in the Mid-East?)
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John, this is a rather unique record of the thread. For the record, I did not simply say I was "sympathetic with the Palestinians". I, in fact, said: "Although I do support the right of self defence, I am fundamentally a pacifist in nature. I (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What part of my definition would you consider a distortion? But even with the definition you supplied, I wouldn't call the example Fredrik provided "terrorism". -John I think this is pretty good: (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, it won't ever happen, so what's the point in bringing it up? I may ponder what would happen if Arafat suddenly converted to Judaism, but it's rather a silly notion and not worth discussion. (...) You asked me if I knew why it happened, (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can't remember ever saying that. I may have pondered what Israel would do if USA stopped giving them ~$2500000000.00 per year (...) I can't remember ever saying that the US "was to blame for 9-11". I suggest you retract that statement. Scott (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Let's just stick to the normal usage/definition of words... not your distorted definition. I think this is pretty good: "Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It was just an oblique reference to what is termed a flame war. My point was merely that if John was going to entirely avoid making any substantive comments, and instead make only personal attacks. I would give him a flame war the likes of (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Cease fire (was: Re: Peace in the Mid-East?)
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(...) Time to wrap this up. This whole thing started because you took me to task when I equated the Palestinians with the PLO. I still say that if the Palestinians continue to support PLO terrorists, they are as culpable as terrorists themselves. If (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Where? and obviously more (...) Then refute it and move on. Really, it's outrageous. I expect an apology from you as (...) Then just say it. I said I would imagine you to be one. Never said you were, and now you have set the record straight. (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Could you clarify what you mean by "I will torch this forum" ? That's a rather worrisome remark. As I said before this is a wasted breath exercise. Surely this will get me another (oh so useful) *sigh* from Scott, but in this case it is *all* (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I use the term "terrorism" as the specific, random targeting of civilians for the purpose of terrorizing them. Notice I don't even mention intent other than to terrorize. There is no rationality behind terrorism beyond terrorizing. It is (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think this is a very important point, which I would like to see more focus on. It is a sad fact that occupied people tend to use violent and immoral action against the occupiying force. It should also be noted that such actions, which can be (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) John, After you have done that, perhaps you can reply to this: (URL) A (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | the song of peace (was Re: jumping to conclusions)
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(...) I think he was comparing people not "systems". (...) Very few occupied peoples do have open and free political systems. The world is full of oppressive regimes... Arafat heads one of them. What you fail to recognise is that Israeli occupation (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Even when that is your own country? Scott A (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Can I assume that you wholly agree with the text you have deleted? (...) You said “never”. I proved you wrong. There appears to be a lot of these “isolated incidents”? How many does it take to prove Israeli belligerence to you? (...) Which books? (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There are two belligerents in this conflict – you fail to acknowledge that. (...) Shocking is it not? Perhaps we should all just get our news from the Israeli government and its apologists? (...) independent ; “not influenced or controlled in (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is a very thinly qualified attack against myself, and obviously more pointedly against Scott. And I DO take offense that you equate any questioning of your unbelievably myopic viewpoints as being the equivalent of siding with terrorists (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Either side, or just one? betrays a leaning for one side or the (...) That's news to me. The US media isn't "pro-Israel", that's for sure. (...) 1. Scott (and you, I'd imagine) sympathize with the Palestinians. 2. The Palestinians are (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am sure Scott can speak for himself, but I can't see why questioning the political motives of either side betrays a leaning for one side or the other. Further, I imagine that Scott is working against the perception that news information in (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is that your "informed" impartial opinion? It doesn't bother me that Liberals have certain ideas and opinions-- that's their right. It's when they try and pass them off as impartial and unbiased that sends me. You claim to not have taken sides (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Even if Arafat had accepted Barak's offer, do you really think the Israeli public would have? Remember, he still had to put it to a referendum. Barak was basically gambling. Scott A (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When have I said that "PLO terrorism" is justified? John, it is time for you to put-up or shut-up! Scott A (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Comparing the Palestinian "system" with ours is a stretch, and you'd be surprised how many Americans *support* Bush on certain policies (such as terrorism), but putting that aside for the moment... I thought his point was that not all (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If only the Palestinians lived in a Democracy and could get rid of him. I think perhaps this is the problem. As I understand it most, if not all, Arab nations are not Democracies. The people in those states know only what their leaders tell (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think the point Scott is trying to make is that not *all Palestinians* support the PLO, just as not all Americans support Dubya. Therefore, saying that you are against Palestinians (implying *all*) because they support the PLO is not a (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <typing slowly so you will finally get it> The Palestinians *support* the PLO and all of their terrorist activity. The PLO murders *on behalf* of the Palestinians, *with their blessing*. *That* is why I am against them. Let them renounce the (...) (23 years ago, 26-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So, if it is only the PLO terrorists who are uncivilised troublemakers, why are you anti-Palestinian? (...) Let’s just question this. Why did Meir (and her cabinet) turn down a cease-fire offer from Nasser (made via the USA?) on 7th Feb 1970? (...) (23 years ago, 26-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Great! When will he go on trial? When will his victims be compensated? Given Israel’s strong record in tracking down war criminals from WW2, it would be hypocracy if he was not put on trial would it not? (...) Indeed it was. But Sabra and (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think this is false, can you justify it? Let's just look at one front. The claimed issue for engaging Syria was that Israeli farmers were being harassed by the Syrians - they (the farmers) made a presentation to the Israeli cabinet which (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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*sigh* Scott A =+= Have you inspected Arthur’s Seat yet? (URL) reasonable man adapts himself to suit his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have to question your evidence of such desire on the part of the people. Here in the Bay Area of California I often express myself as I see fit, I feel free and safe to do so. When I lived in a suburbs of Chicago I felt less free to discuss (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who can say why the offer was rejected? Arafat is a Grade A loser and the Palestinians should get rid of him. At the same time, I saw it as an act of bad faith on the part of the Israelis to vote Sharon into office considering the sort of (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barak offer Arafat in one of the "agreements" a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza, including a capital in east Jerusalem? and was turned down, because Arafat wanted more? (...) well, I can see why (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Doing the only thing they can? Strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up women, kids, houses and villages? Only thing they can?? I don't care what the world could throw at me, there will *never* come a time when I would feel justified to (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This makes it seem that you don't understand how we "fight terrorism" on stage and toss terrorists scraps under the table. Do you really believe all that one-sided Amerika is the land of goodness tripe? We are a political entity and we do evil (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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