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(...) No, what I am doing is returning the word to its base definition... it's original meaning. Terror Terrorize Terrorist Terrorism Terrible All of the above mean; to frighten For you to say that the bionicles are *terrible* is fine, unfortunately (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | broad brush terrorists (was Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?)
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(...) I could, but I do not agree that terrorism is immoral. It depends on what the fight is against. There are instances where terrorists get broad based support for their actions where they are viewed as fighting against "immoral" regimes. If we (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More LP S P A M : (was Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment)
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(...) Well it looks like she is less likely to be murdered. By chance I found this: (URL) know some numbskulls don't like UN stats, but it gives us this: 1997 Homicide (male) USA : 11.8 per 100,000 England & Wales : 0.8 per 100,000 (6.8% of the USA (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Public v Private Health Care (Re: "The Constitution is what the judges say it is")
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(...) I looked at this a little more. The USA spends 12.9% of its GDP on health (highest in the world). The UK spends just 6.8% of GDP. France spends 9.3% and has the best Healthcare system - as rated by WHO (not the pop group). The UK system is (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian comes through for the Terrorists
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(...) Does the fact that Bush said something to that effect make his statement true? Fredrik (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I gave Aug 45 as an "example" of terrorism. No attempt at definition. I've *never* considered "definition" a subjective term, however, I *do* consider "terrorism" subjective (as I outlined here (URL) if you consider terrorism a subjective (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Especially evil? No, or at least, I wouldn't deem it as such. As I've said elsewhere, the fact that it employed fear doesn't necessarily make it immoral, and even if it does, it doesn't mean it's necessarily unjustified. (...) I'm highly in (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) There was, in fact, an attempted coup by high-ranking officers once the Emperor's wishes had become known. The problem with Fascist thinking was that it was seen as a struggle of civilizations; Hitler in fact articulated that if the German (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Final Post
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Good for you Dan! I'll try to do the same. You have way too much talent, so why waste it arguing with Larry? ;-) (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I think you've defined, although in your opinion, that the bombings were terrorism. That's actually a pretty good analogy--the word "terrorism" has a semantic load, as does "definition." Is it a subjective or objective term? I'm not making a (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Final Post
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It was brought to my attention that posting to this forum has been a big waste of time so consider this my final post. I'm not interested in debating anymore or following any further discussions. It's not fun and nothing we say here makes any (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I actually agree to a large extent that the tactic was to induce fear. That is in fact a legitimate war strategy at some level. The only way to win a war is to win the morale battle. You can't kill every single enemy. This is why a (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I haven't presented any reasoning in support of that before. All my reasoning before has been about whether or not it was terrorism - nothing about morality in there. ROSCO (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I've gotta pull you up on that one, Larry. Just as not all US citizens are "good" or support the current war, I see it as impossible to make such a huge generalisation about Japanese civilians (no matter where they happened to live / work) in (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I would argue that it wasn't unprovoked. And why were the innocent civilians unsuspecting, when bin Laden had already given several warnings, and "declared war on the US" some 5 years earlier? And just for thought, how much warning did the (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Are you satisfied with the reasoning you presented before in support of that? Has anything about it changed with Dave Eaton's presentation of his rationale? (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) a (...) Yes ROSCO (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Anthrax outside US: threat or paranoia?
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Hi all, I am posting this because of the recent news about anthrax-bearing letters in the US. I know those are causing concern across the atlantic, so I won't discuss *their* impact. Which is REAL, BTW. But one thing is bugging me: in the last (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) "As immediately as possible" I suppose you could question, but according to the timeline: - 8/6 Bomb #1 - 8/9 Bomb #2 - 8/14 Surrender There was more time inbetween the 2nd bomb and the surrender than between the 1st and 2nd bombs, in fact. (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: oops, my bad!!
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(...) Hi Kirby, You don't really need to be sorry. So maybe you made some confusions... it happens to us all sometimes. Nothing to worry about - I just feared you were wanting to re-write history! :-) If you want to refresh your history knowledge, I (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I think I missed that the first time. It was my understanding that they surrendered about as immediately as could be possibly arranged given the circumstances. Can you restate why you feel they did not surrender immediately? (...) I fear a (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) No, you said "completely" closed minded, not me. I don't recall saying "completely." (...) Sobs of utter appreciation, my friend, that the Great and Powerful Lar would so generously grace us with his fair hand of understanding. I am beset with (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) It tends to be obscure, but there was never a decision to drop Bomb 1, a pause, and then a decision to drop Bomb 2. The decision was made to drop two bombs. Were both bombs necessary? Maybe not - they may have eventually surrendered anyway (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Oh, that was just sarcasm about the last time you accused me of over-analyzing a situation down to many constituent parts and rating those parts as nigh on irrelevant. Hence the little ';)'. (...) You just hit the nail on the head, didn't you? (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Still, my point stands then? Whether or not they were cowardly is irrelevant to whether it was terrorism, yes? (...) !! Sure there is. Attempting to get someone/a group of people to do something by making them respond to terror that you induce (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) No, at least I don't parse it that way. Feel free to diagram the sentence though, so I can see it! (...) The world is a complicated place. Or would you rather Truman hadn't considered all those factors? You can handle the complexity, I think. (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Exactly correct-- my point was that I'm not sure I understand what ends you believe were intended. If the end was "to scare the Japanese" rather than "to have Japan surrender", then yes, I agree that the bombing may have been necessary. I just (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) In your defense, though, I would assert that it's not necessary (possible?) to be completely moral. However, in a field of several choices, the greatest "net good" outcome is preferable to less "net good" outcomes. We can be criticized after (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) It would still be cowardly for them to fly their own planes into the buildings because they would be making an unprovoked attack against innocent and unsuspecting civilians on the civilians' home soil during a time when the home nation was at (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Isn't that what I said? (...) Now you're the one who's going for the complicated explanation ;) I could draw it out further and say isn't one of Osama's major "justifications" with the US the fact that we dropped the Bomb on the Japanese as an (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) I think we differ on this. You can't separate ends from means. Here's my view If the end was intended to be moral, but it is achieved by immoral actions (immoral in this usage means bad morals, not amoral) it comes out immoral anyway. If the (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Just some minor picking while I try to think about that hole. (...) Dan's referenced site makes the case that it wasn't a "drop one, then decide to drop the other" plan. Both were dropped as part of the same plan, so you should take issue with (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Well-- two things. First off, you may be quite right-- I don't really know what our mentality was at the time. Perhaps that was the best information we had available, which would mean that an A-bomb hit MAY have been the only way to show that (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Yes, but not for the reasons you state, I think. The hole is that I don't think morality is necessarily tied to these events. Whether or not it was a moral action doesn't matter to whether it was "necessary" or not, unless your ends are (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Yes, let's not blur the issue-- what part does being cowardly have in being a terrorist? Let's say they flew their own planes into our buildings. No longer a terrorist action? I don't think whether they/we were cowardly or not is really (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) no argument there from me - one question though. what if, fearing the canadians, you abandon your land for 30 years? do you still own it, and everything that has been built on it since? it's possible to contend that whoever settled the (now (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Aren't you saying that it's not the case that you didn't know that what you hadn't said contradicted what he had said wasn't the case? Dave! (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Everything I have ever read about WWII Japanese suggests that there was pretty strong belief that they would likely have fought bitterly to the end had something overwhelming happened to make the entire populace recognize that further fighting (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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Typo alert! (...) This should say "we have to accept the outcome that they view themselves as good and us as evil as JUST AS VALID as our own finding of the opposite" Too many negatives and I got confused, I guess. Sorry about that, peeps. (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?
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(...) Well that's the crux of the hole in my argument. Unless it can be shown that it is NOT a subjective judgement (that is, that it's not just a morally relative judgement), we have to accept the outcome that they view themselves as evil and (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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