 | | Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Jason S. Mantor
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| | | I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a while and I'd like to throw it out for discussion. I think the ldraw specification needs to evolve in order to take the great work that James started and make it into the "toy" that everyone really (...) (22 years ago, 26-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Chuck Sommerville
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| | | | | (...) Im not sure about md2, obj or md3, but at least milkshape is human readable. unfortunately, It doesn't support include files like ldraw .dat files do. I like the idea of extending the ldraw format to include the features you outlined. -Chuck (22 years ago, 26-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Jason S. Mantor
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| | | | | | (...) Yeah that's why I included it, but IMHO human readable isn't a big deal if we take advantage of the existing tools. Milkshape with "extra" features like LCD (Lego Connection Database) Tags could be quite workable though.... (...) Cool and (...) (22 years ago, 27-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Jonathan Wilson
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| | | | | (...) My vote is for MD3. Heres why: Discreet (makers of 3ds max) released a special version called Gmax. Gmax is designed as a way to make new graphics for games and can only save to its own special format (*.gmax) and can only export via special (...) (22 years ago, 27-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Damien Guichard
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| | | | | (...) Hi Jason, Sure there is much discussion about standardization of "1st generation" LDraw file format and nothing about a "2nd generation" file format that would break compatibility. Using only these 5 bricks i have built 30+ lego animals: * (...) (22 years ago, 27-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | (...) No flames here. Go for it. (...) What project you take on in what form is up to you, but perhaps before branching off to something totally new, you could consider getting involved with the topic of LDraw file format standards? Maybe you could (...) (22 years ago, 27-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Orion Pobursky
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| | | | | | In lugnet.cad, Damien Guichard writes: <snip> (...) The reason for this is that in order to figure out a 2nd generation spec that will be backward compatible with the 1st generation spec we have to fully document what the 1st generation spec is, (...) (22 years ago, 27-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Wayne Gramlich
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| | | | | (...) Jason: There are lots of 3D formats out there; some proprietary, some semi-proprietary, and some completely open. Besides the 3D game folks, there are the 3D art programs (e.g. 3D Studio Max) and the 3D CAD/CAM folks (e.g. AutoCAD.) Each area (...) (22 years ago, 27-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Jason S. Mantor
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| | | | | | (...) Yep. I've actually written code to convert between several of these and they don't really fit the bill : ( The ones that are commonly used are proprietary and these kinds of programs typically need workstation-level computing power to work (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Darrell Urbien
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| | | | | | | (...) LOL, that's kind of like saying, "Did I mention that I loathe Microsoft?" (Hmmm... You probably say that too..) AutoCAD is the 300lb gorilla of CAD. (...) Of course you're correct. But keep in mind CAD software was written to do a specific job (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | (...) You might look into the LDLite language extensions -- they probably don't qualify as true vertex lists, but they do allow you to write files in a vertex-list friendly fashion. You can use the POINT meta-statement to define each vertex at the (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | | Geez, it'd be nice if I finished my thought... (...) If the renderer allowed the user to change the include/search path from the default: ldraw\parts;ldraw\p to ldraw\parts.ldl;ldra...dl;ldraw\p The renderer would pick up the translated parts first. (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Jason S. Mantor
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| | | | | | I just did a double take : ) YEA, vertex lists ! I was working up to proposing just this sort of addition to the standard. Since these already exist can they be grandfathered into the 1.0 document that Orion has prepared ? -JSM PS. I was so annoyed (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | (...) Uh, you might want to recheck that enthusiasm. Right now, AFAIK (and I haven't double-checked, so you might want to try it), *only* LDLite will render all of the LDLite meta-statements. They definitely are not allowable in parts submitted for (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | | (...) Sorry, one more addition: You can use LDAO to translate any LDL[1] file to straight LDR[2]. So create your parts in the vertex-list-friendly style, then convert them for the rest of the world. :) Steve 1) LDraw files with LDLite language (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Don Heyse
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| | | | | | (...) But doesn't LDLite have have a command line switch (-R) to convert the LDLite meta-statements to ordinary LDRAW syntax? So you could submit the converted parts. Don (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Paul Gyugyi
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| | | | | | (...) Yep, and it got broken in a past version. Should be working in the newest version. If not, drop me a note. If you asked me how to change the .LDR format, I would not know where to begin. I view almost every single command, directory structure, (...) (22 years ago, 2-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | Quoting out of the original order: (...) Flaming? Well, you should go research LDraw II, now that Jacob's server is back online. (...) How do these formats do with the number of triangles normally found in an LDraw model? My impression is that these (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | | | | (...) That's my impression also. They seem to be oriented towards (relatively) lower polygon counts, and increased usage of textures. They use the textures to achieve the details so that they don't need to bog down the system with more vertices and (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | | | (...) OK, so that leads to one of my desires in an upgraded (or different) GDL: level-of-detail control. Basically, there should be language elements that allow authors to flag the priority of different elements in a file -- so the main outside body (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yes! LOD would be very useful. There are several general purpose LOD methods out there, but again we may be able to improve performance or ease a renderer's job, by supplying even more information in a part file. Polygons, could be flagged as (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I'm not sure the top/bottom/left/right would work in part files - since parts can be rotated to any orientation. If you mount a plate on the side of a headlight brick, the 'top' of the plate is no longer the top. LDraw does have one type of (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Anders Isaksson
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| | | | | | | | "Kyle McDonald" <Kyle.McDonald@Sun.COM> skrev i meddelandet news:3EB07E46.207000...Sun.COM... (...) That's a lot of work for a small gain (if any) - it's better if the software can deduce such things. Don't forget special handling of transparent (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Anders Isaksson
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| | | | | | | "Steve Bliss" <steve.bliss@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelandet news:5iq0bvciiurtrj7...4ax.com... (...) Don't forget the 'infinite recursion' of LDRAW files - a line in a 'time script file' could refer to a whole scene in a 'scene file' where one line (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Jacob Sparre Andersen
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| | | | | | (...) I suppose Steve is talking about: (URL) I am not sure I believe in this project myself anymore (except for for parts files - maybe). My current darling is to make a _building-oriented_ file format. I wrote some notes about it at some point, (...) (22 years ago, 2-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | (...) Since Jason brought this up -- *is* there a method for material/texture mapping in z-buffer renderers like LDraw? TLG is using more 'special treatment' materials in their parts, and it would be very nice if LDraw could keep up. I'd be a very (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | (...) I would think that some sort of 'material' definition would definitely be useful, to give these (reflection etc.) types of hints to a renderer. I'm not sure that 'textures' themselves are required, but then again, Textures may be a better way (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Leonardo Zide
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| | | | | (...) I posted my opinion about materials yesterday, it would give renderers more options than only using colors. (...) Textures are faster to create and render than the clumsy way we do stickers and decorations right now. I propose we add a new (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Don Heyse
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| | | | | | (...) Hmm, textures. Another idea might be to introduce BEGIN and END TEXTURE meta-command hints around printed areas so the rendering programs can render them to a texture ahead of time. This could be combined with another meta-command to (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | (...) For POV-Ray, this could already be accomplished with the 0 IFL3P commands. But people would have to do some fast talking to convince me to include the needed scanned image files in the parts library. Steve (22 years ago, 10-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | (...) Defining the material would be one side of the issue. We (ie, the LSC) could adopt/adapt the LDLite COLOR statement to handle materials. My question is really on the technical side: I'm somewhat aware of the technique of texture-mapping, but I (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Leonardo Zide
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| | | | (...) Create a 0 MATERIAL extension instead, where you can define the properties of the surface (smooth, bump, rubber, etc.) and keep the color selection using the standard LDraw way so we don't break compatibility. (...) This is a case by case (...) (22 years ago, 1-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Don Heyse
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| | | | | (...) I like this. It would allow you to define a bunch of materials up front and then apply them to some of the surfaces. Could we use this for printed textures as well, or would that be better with a different meta-command? How would you apply the (...) (22 years ago, 2-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Leonardo Zide
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| | | | | | | (...) I was thinking we would have a pre-defined set of materials, so we don't need to define them. (...) That's what I had in mind. (...) You need texture coordinates to be able to apply textures but you don't need them for smooth, rubber and (...) (22 years ago, 2-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | (...) Yes, I think it would be good to not encode the materials in the rendering programs. There are always going to be new materials, just like LEGO keeps coming up with new colors. (...) That would work for some things, like bumpy surfaces on (...) (22 years ago, 10-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Don Heyse
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| | | | | | (...) I see what you mean. We've actually started doing this for certain materials such as gold, silver, chrome, and rubber. Ldview and ldglite already tinker with the specular properties for some of these materials based on the predefined color (...) (22 years ago, 12-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | (...) Yes, there's been several different pearlescents. Mostly in Bionicle products. Some of the colors include tan, gray, dark gray, and sand blue. The pearlescence appears (to my eye) to be mixed in throughout the material, not just a surface (...) (22 years ago, 14-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —David Laswell
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| | | | | | (...) There are also a few in Star Wars, Spybotics, and Racers, but I can't recall ever seeing any that didn't come in Technic sets. (...) Pretty much the same all the way through. Sorta. The metallic colors are produced by using a different type of (...) (22 years ago, 14-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | (...) I appreciate that. But the only software I've seen use texture mapping has been based on raytracing. Well, actually I don't know how most gaming engines work. BUT, I still want to know -- is there a texture-mapping algorithm that mere mortals (...) (22 years ago, 10-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Don Heyse
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| | | | (...) Have you looked at ldview? It uses texture mapping to display the LEGO logos on the studs. (...) I was under the impression that they ALL use texture mapping nowadays to get more detail with less polygons. (...) Sure. Just do a google search (...) (22 years ago, 12-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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| | | | | | Re: Crazy, OK Heretical Idea ... —Steve Bliss
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| | | | (...) Sorry, I wasn't clear: I know they use texture-mapping, but I don't know if they're more like raytracers, or more like z-bufferers. I guess it probably isn't comparable/answerable, since they all rely on graphics hardware (or software (...) (22 years ago, 14-May-03, to lugnet.cad)
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