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Here we go again...
"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also • a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things • and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the • "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to • have
> rare sets.
Ugh.
Ben, I really do respect you and your building achievements, but I have to
disagree here.
In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
I am a builder, not a collector. While I do have a "Lego collection", I
don't purchase the product to see the price rise, or to sit models on a
glass shelf never to be touched again. I don't purchase the product just for
the sake of having something that few others have. I don't purchase the
product just for the satisfaction of owning it. I open all my sets. I build
models and I can't wait to see what my daughter does with Lego.
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new • printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors • would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the • new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
Yes, a new Metroliner would have been cool. But the old one is great too.
> ...and nearly all people around
> have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
Wrong. How do you know what sets I have?
I don't have a Metroliner. Or a Club Car. I will not pay $250 for a used
4558. I won't pay $350+ for a MISB 4558. And I would much rather purchase a
set from directly from S@H instead of on the secondary market.
> And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than
4560.
And what evidence do you have of this? In my opinion, all signs point to the
fact that the 9v train line is alive and kicking. And the models are getting
better and better. (and as an aside, I would rather see smaller, similar
themed cars as separate sets rather than big $140 sets)
> If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on • the
> one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, • 4551 is
> a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> fantastic set!)
Again, what evidence do you have of this assumption? I doubt there will be
another train-oriented Legends release for a long time. I'm sure Brad & Lego
Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have equal
representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer. In the meantime, I just don't
think Lego would re-release another full sized train set for a long, long
time.
> The new 1000x series just kills legends and is not helpful for me at
> all, since I get just "boring" stuff I have right now.... (I'm both • collector
> and builder).
The Legends are helpful for
a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
fantastic sets.
c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
secondary market.
d) Anyone who wants awesome Lego sets.
Ben - I'm sorry to hear that LD has taken the wind out of your collectable
sails. But there is nothing stopping you from still enjoying your closet
full of mint-in-box 4558's and other sets.
I feel for Lego Direct. You can't make all the people happy all of the time.
Bryan
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In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel writes:
> Here we go again...
>
> "Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
> news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> > As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also • a
> > collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> > Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things • and
> > play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the • "players"
> > want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to • have
> > rare sets.
>
> Ugh.
>
> Ben, I really do respect you and your building achievements, but I have to
> disagree here.
>
> In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
> fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
Only the prices for the collectors item. I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
> I am a builder, not a collector. While I do have a "Lego collection", I
> don't purchase the product to see the price rise, or to sit models on a
> glass shelf never to be touched again. I don't purchase the product just for
> the sake of having something that few others have. I don't purchase the
> product just for the satisfaction of owning it.
Sometime I do all the above mentioned: lots of other people do the same. What's
wrong about it?
> I open all my sets.
I do it in the same way, but I do not damn those who collect MISB sets. Why
should I do. They share my hobby (even if it is in a strongly different way,
but I do not damn Bionicle fans either.)
> I build
> models and I can't wait to see what my daughter does with Lego.
> > ...and nearly all people around
> > have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> > weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
>
> Wrong. How do you know what sets I have?
> I don't have a Metroliner. Or a Club Car. I will not pay $250 for a used
> 4558. I won't pay $350+ for a MISB 4558. And I would much rather purchase a
> set from directly from S@H instead of on the secondary market.
But tell me why do you need a Metroliner, but are not willing to pay its
marketprice? Would you have had a problem with a evidently changed Metroliner
(for e.g. in dark gray)?
> > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than
> 4560.
>
> And what evidence do you have of this? In my opinion, all signs point to the
> fact that the 9v train line is alive and kicking. And the models are getting
> better and better.
Trains are alive, but I see them not become better and better. 3225 was a lame
set, 4560 also, 2126 was only a good spare part box. My own train and the
new waggons are quite ok (back on the level of the mid-nineties, but not better
than anything from the 80ies.)
> (and as an aside, I would rather see smaller, similar
> themed cars as separate sets rather than big $140 sets)
I agree.
>
> > If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on • the
> > one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, • 4551 is
> > a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> > fantastic set!)
>
> Again, what evidence do you have of this assumption? I doubt there will be
> another train-oriented Legends release for a long time.
I was speaking of the assumption that the now released line of Legends became a
big success and make lots of profit. Surely TLC would follow then this way and
the best sets of the 9V line have been 4558, 4547, 4551 and 4536. the last two
one are "in danger" to be re-released.
> I'm sure Brad & Lego
> Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have equal
> representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
> fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer.
Yes, I fear this will be one of the next dead legends. Would anybody have a
problem with a new Classic Space Logo (or a mirrored one)?
> In the meantime, I just don't
> think Lego would re-release another full sized train set for a long, long
> time.
That's also speculation, but I agree. If each month means just one or two new
legends, there have to be first some other themes: Technic (953 or 8880?),
Pirates (6385?), Space (497 or 6954?), Town, Western, ....
> The Legends are helpful for
> a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
But they do not need a 100% copy and kids do not buy via S@H at www.lego.com
anyway.
> b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
> fantastic sets. • Adult could affort the real sets or live with not 100% copies either
> c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
> secondary market. • I would prefer to own one "real" legend instead of 5 cheap copies of one...
> d) Anyone who wants awesome Lego sets.
The Sopwith Camel is a great set: better TLC invents new cool sets on a
quality level like that.
> Ben - I'm sorry to hear that LD has taken the wind out of your collectable
> sails.
It has not: thye will never re-release the 139 and others. ;-))
> But there is nothing stopping you from still enjoying your closet
> full of mint-in-box 4558's and other sets.
I have bought some MISB train sets during the past years (even over 30 years
old ones!): I have opened them all. I'm no MISB-freak, but I know about friends
who are: still - what's wrong about?
Even if people try to make profit by buying sealed stuff: Is making profit
suddenly wrong?
Kind Regards,
Ben
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
<SNIP>
> > In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
> > fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
>
> Only the prices for the collectors item. I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
> for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
<SNIP>
Ben,
I see the point that you are getting at. I am not a lego "Collector" really.
I buy legos and build with Lego's. But I am a collector of other things
(Star Trek Action Figures, Die-Cast Soildiers) and I can understand where
you are comming from. There is nothing worse to a collector than the
watering down of the product line with re-issues. Most companies that are in
the collectable market understand this and try not to effect their secondary
market value. The problem is that a company cannot be in both camps. It
cannot make both collectors and players (people who "play" with Lego's)
happy. The two goals are counter productive. They have to pick one, and
since they are a childrens toy company they are trying to make the players
happy.
It's shows that LD is working on a tight budget. They are trying to make a
rather major change inside TLC, which is a very difficult task. It seems to
me that their goal (LD) is to prove that the AFOL are a market that is worth
going after. IMHO What they want to show is that if TLC spends money to
develope new products/parts/packaging that appeals to the AFOL with a supply
chain that differs from standard (basically in story shopping is the
standard) that they will make money. They don't want to break even, they
want to make a nice healthy profit to show that it is worth while.
The problem is, as of yet we (AFOL'S) are still an untested market. They do
not know the price points, the market depth, our actuall numbers, etc... So
basically what they are doing right now is testing the market. They know
what themes are important to AFOL's as well as the more popular sets, so
they are releasing a few "test" sets to see how the market does.
Now this might seem strange to you (or us as a group) because we know that
we will go nuts over the new sets if they are nicely designed. We know that
we would buy just as many Guarded Inn's if they came with tan instead of red
tudor peices. We know that we will go nuts over (and probably buy out) the
Metroliner and club car, even if they come in dark grey, or even the white
Eurostar version as opposed to the origional. They don't know that, or are
not willing to take the risk. They know that the Guarded Inn, in its
origional form, was one of the most looked for sets, so why would they make
a change for the test?
Basically they know that there are "Collectors" out there, but they chose to
overlook them right now because they pretty much can assume that the
re-issue of the origional guarded in will sell well (better than they
thought) and will make their point (make the test succesfull). Since the
company is trying to target the 'players' as opposed to the collectors, they
don't really care about the secondary market value of a set. Since they do
not directly make money of the secondary sale, it does not really bother
them that they have lowered the price of the set.
As to the assumption that they can sell newer sets at a higher price because
of the after market value of a older set. This is bunk, really. We all know
that there is a price point at which most people will chose not to buy a
set. Since an MISB metroliner sells on ebay for us$250 does that mean the
reissue should sell for US$225? I think not. For most people in their target
market (the "players") that would cross the price point and they would not
buy the set. It would still have the initial result of lowering the
origional set price at first because of the market flood.
Cheers,
David
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"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:GGKnuE.8rt@lugnet.com...
> But tell me why do you need a Metroliner, but are not willing to pay its
> marketprice?
Of course I don't "need" a 4558. But I desire one. But I won't pay secondary
prices.
I have a budget and have many priorities in life that are way ahead of Lego.
> Would you have had a problem with a evidently changed Metroliner
> (for e.g. in dark gray)?
No. But I doubt LD would go for the costs associated with "tweaking" an old
set.
> I was speaking of the assumption that the now released line of Legends • became a
> big success and make lots of profit. Surely TLC would follow then this way • and
> the best sets of the 9V line have been 4558, 4547, 4551 and 4536. the last • two
> one are "in danger" to be re-released.
What do you mean by "in danger?" Are you offering up 4551 and 4536 has
potential Legends? Bring them on! I will buy them.
> > Bryan:
> > I'm sure Brad & Lego
> > Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have • equal
> > representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
> > fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer.
> Ben:
> Yes, I fear this will be one of the next dead legends. Would anybody have • a
> problem with a new Classic Space Logo (or a mirrored one)?
You are probably right on this one. But again, why would LD put forth the
cost and effort to tweak a set? I don't think that LD would sell more of a
tweaked set as opposed to a 100% re-issue. If anything, the cost associated
with minor changes to a set to satify the collectors would only hurt LD's
profit margins.
> > The Legends are helpful for
> > a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
> But they do not need a 100% copy and kids do not buy via S@H at • www.lego.com
> anyway.
No, children don't need a 100% copy. But the 100% copy sold like hotcakes
from what I heard from the LD Chat at Brickfest. And I'm sure it was
purchased by parents who said "Gee, this looks like the Lego toys I
remember, not the stuff that fills 80% of the rest of the catalog."
> > b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
> > fantastic sets.
> Adult could affort the real sets or live with not 100% copies either
From the posts in LUGNET, must adults *DO* have a budget and don't like
paying the high costs on the secondary market. I'm an adult, with a very
good, very comfortable paying job. But I don't have a never ending source of
funds.
And I think overall the adults on this side of the Atlantic do want 100%
copies.
> > c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
> > secondary market.
> I would prefer to own one "real" legend instead of 5 cheap copies of
one...
Again, your preference comes from a collector's point of view. As far as I'm
concerned, my "cheap copy" is the same thing. Except the torsos are
different. And the box. Big deal. But I got a bonus Indian horse and you
don't!. ;)
> I have bought some MISB train sets during the past years (even over 30 • years
> old ones!): I have opened them all. I'm no MISB-freak, but I know about • friends
> who are: still - what's wrong about?
Absolutely nothing.
> Even if people try to make profit by buying sealed stuff: Is making profit
> suddenly wrong?
I never said it was wrong. I'm all for the free market. However the term
"collectors market" leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It brings up
images of surly looking guys behind dealer tables with an excess of comic
books, trading cards, sports memorabilia and Beanie Babies. I don't think
anyone wants to see this happen to Lego products.
I just don't see any downside to Lego re-releasing these beauties. AFOLs, at
least here on Lugnet, have been clamoring for reissued sets for at least as
long as I've been using Lugnet.
Bryan
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
> for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
No. Wrong.
TLC gets no benefit from things sold on the secondary market. It doesn't allow
them to "artificially" inflate prices on "new" items... how many posts do we
see on Lugnet complaining about the "price per piece" going up?
The only people that benefit from the price of a used (or out-of-production
[OOP] MISB) set being driven up by collectors is... collectors. Actually, not
even the collectors really benefit- the only people that benefit are those that
sit on multiple sealed copies of an old set, waiting for the price to go up so
they can sell them at a profit. This is commonly known as "speculating" and
the people that do it are known as "speculators".
TLC re-releasing the sets will benefit *everyone* except the speculators.
Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
TLC. Before now, if I wanted a Metroliner, I would have to look for one from
someone else, taking a bigger chunk of my LEGO budget- and NONE of that money
would go to TLC! Getting some of that money flowing back to TLC is good for
not only TLC, but also for LEGO fans. In case you hadn't noticed, TLC has been
having financial trouble lately. I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans if
TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
Those that want to collect the old sets can still do so! There is no way that
you will mistake a LEGO Legends release for the old set. The box is totally
different. Fortunately for collectors, the price of a Metroliner (the original
one) will plummet! After all, a good chunk of the people that wanted a
Mertoliner will now simply buy the LEGO Legends release. Collectors will no
longer be competing with builders to get Metroliner original release sets.
Once a collector has a set, the going price for that set shouldn't matter to
him. After all, he's a collector, so giving up the set should be the last
thing he wants to do, for money or anything else!
As I said earlier, the only person hurt by this move is the Speculator. The
speculator will now have several copies of the set for which he paid more than
the current "going price". It is difficult for me to have any sympathy for the
speculator... as a shadow market, speculators drive up the price for both
collectors and builders by competing with them for available OOP sets. Then
they prfit from this price increase by selling back the set to the builders and
collectors. I do not like speculators... they sit on sets that could be making
a builder or a collector happy, for no other reason than financial gain. So,
actually, I quite like seeing them get burned by re-releases. They should find
a better way to make money.
So, would you care to show how the re-release of these sets hurts either
builders or collectors, or TLC? Because I just don't see it.
eric
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> > said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no • advantage
> > for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> > helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
>
> No. Wrong.
>
> TLC gets no benefit from things sold on the secondary market. It doesn't • allow
> them to "artificially" inflate prices on "new" items... how many posts do we
> see on Lugnet complaining about the "price per piece" going up?
>
> The only people that benefit from the price of a used (or out-of-production
> [OOP] MISB) set being driven up by collectors is... collectors. Actually, not
> even the collectors really benefit- the only people that benefit are those • that
> sit on multiple sealed copies of an old set, waiting for the price to go up so
> they can sell them at a profit. This is commonly known as "speculating" and
> the people that do it are known as "speculators".
And what about the "normal" people who go into their dark ages? Lots of people
know about the secondary market for used Lego toys and they do benefit by
selling their used stuff.
I think high prices for used stuff make it easier for Lego to sell their new
stuff. I can buy Duplo for a child and it's no problem to ged rid of it
a few years later. I think even those parly nuts prices for MISB sets make
people look at our hobby and make them sure about, it is a serious hobby, and
not a childish one.
> TLC re-releasing the sets will benefit *everyone* except the speculators.
>
> Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
> Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
> TLC. Before now, if I wanted a Metroliner, I would have to look for one from
> someone else, taking a bigger chunk of my LEGO budget- and NONE of that money
> would go to TLC! Getting some of that money flowing back to TLC is good for
> not only TLC, but also for LEGO fans. In case you hadn't noticed, TLC has • been
> having financial trouble lately. I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans if
> TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
junior and low quality crap like this.
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
You surely never have heard any complaining by me about too high prices of Lego
sets. I want high quality stuff (like TLC made it in the past). If you haven't
noticed: new bricks have higher tolerances (wich is bad) and are more weak. So
they get scratches and are warped even as new bricks sometimes. If Lego wants
to make profit with crap, they have to look for other consumers than me.
> As I said earlier, the only person hurt by this move is the Speculator. The
> speculator will now have several copies of the set for which he paid more than
> the current "going price". It is difficult for me to have any sympathy for • the
> speculator... as a shadow market, speculators drive up the price for both
> collectors and builders by competing with them for available OOP sets. Then
> they prfit from this price increase by selling back the set to the builders • and
> collectors. I do not like speculators... they sit on sets that could be • making
> a builder or a collector happy, for no other reason than financial gain.
What is bad about profit? If I can get my childhoods dream (the 7740) as MISB
today for a horrible price, I still might buy it. Even if some speculator wins
a few $$. What's so bad about it. You can't make a dream become true every day:
then it is no longer a dream. A MISB Metroliner is no longer a legend: it is
just one average Lego set among many others. Just a lost dream - a stolen
possibility....
> So, actually, I quite like seeing them get burned by re-releases.
And you are sure, you are not just jealous against people, who bought from the
speculator or against the speculator himnself? Nearly all "speculators" I know
are huge Lego fans themselves and they do this (sometimes risky) speculation to
finance their hobby and help other people to become their dreams fulfilled. In
the end the speculator uses his won money to buy even more new stuff from
TLC....
> They should • find
> a better way to make money.
Why? Who would profit then?
> So, would you care to show how the re-release of these sets hurts either
> builders or collectors, or TLC? Because I just don't see it.
Just tried to give my explanation. It would be very easy for TLC to release
changed Legends, which would make both players and collectors glad. Tht's all I
say. But I alway read about people who would like to get the original for low
prices. That would give profit to noone but these cheap price buyers.
Leg Godt!
Ben
(who is NO speculator or MISB collector).
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> > I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans • if
> > TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
>
> If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> junior and low quality crap like this.
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
>
> You surely never have heard any complaining by me about too high prices of • Lego
> sets. I want high quality stuff (like TLC made it in the past). If you haven't
> noticed: new bricks have higher tolerances (wich is bad) and are more weak. So
> they get scratches and are warped even as new bricks sometimes. If Lego wants
> to make profit with crap, they have to look for other consumers than me.
Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I was
refering to. The minifig is from the re-release of the Guarded Inn and
demonstrates why I really not will have to worry about new Metroliners at
all....
Ok, I become sarcastic. But you asked for cheap Guarded Inns and now you have
them at last. But I do not want to hear anybody complain about his weak-plastic
sets lateron. Have fun with your (not legendary) legends. ;-)
Leg Godt!
Ben
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Reinhard "Ben" Beneke wrote in message ...
> Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
>
> This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I
was
LOL! I *want* that minifig head!
Kevin
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In lugnet.trains, Kevin Wilson writes:
> Reinhard "Ben" Beneke wrote in message ...
> > Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> > picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
> >
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
> >
> > This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I
> was
>
> LOL! I *want* that minifig head!
Oh THAT! That's the new minifig 'Internet emoticon' editon head. Look for
more to come, including:
; )
: P
: D
> : *
And more!
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Ben,
Are changing your argument against re-releases from an issue of
collectability to an issue of quality control???
Yes, we have seen problems with production runs of train bases, some alleged
printing smudgy-ness on 10000 flags, Indian horses in the 10000 boxes, etc.
I'm sure these issues will be worked out over time. Big deal. If you get a
sub-par part, Lego has always been there to rectify the situation.
But are these production problems going to stop me from buying a 10001
Metroliner? No way.
Do I consider these quality problems major? No. They are very minor and will
be fixed, I'm sure.
And I'm sure Lego would be more than happy to send Christian a new maiden
mini-figure.
> This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I • was
> refering to
I have seen your pictures in Brickshelf, but I don't think there has been
much active discussion about quality control. At least in the forums I
follow (.general, .trains, .marketplace) (but feel free to direct me to the
threads if I'm wrong.)
> The minifig is from the re-release of the Guarded Inn and
> demonstrates why I really not will have to worry about new Metroliners at
> all....
I don't get this point. What do you have to worry about with the new
Metroliners? That they will decrease the "value" of your collection?
Bryan
"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:GGMx56.JJ0@lugnet.com...
> Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
>
> This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I • was
> refering to. The minifig is from the re-release of the Guarded Inn and
> demonstrates why I really not will have to worry about new Metroliners at
> all....
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In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel writes:
> Ben,
> Are changing your argument against re-releases from an issue of
> collectability to an issue of quality control???
No - he's not chaning his argument, he's just adding new ones as new info
comes available. I was about to post about the latest bad quality on
.lego.direct but Ben has beaten me by a few hours and mentioned it on this
thread about Legends. Since that head has been found inside a legend set I
think it's impossible to ignrore the quality-argument. His other arguments
[all really good] have been mostly ignored here and I have the impression
that you try to negotiate the bad quality too.
If interested, you may now also find a close-up of the head piece here:
http://www.brickmaster.de/Guarded/ [scroll down to updated]
> Yes, we have seen problems with production runs of train bases, some alleged
> printing smudgy-ness on 10000 flags, Indian horses in the 10000 boxes, etc.
> I'm sure these issues will be worked out over time. Big deal. If you get a
> sub-par part, Lego has always been there to rectify the situation.
Yes, that kind of service is *usually* okay. However, for example, about one
year back I did order LEGO set #5222 from S@H and one piece was missing! The
wierd thing is that it has NEVER been replaced:
http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/new_ele2.jpg
[ from: http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/52XX.html ]
I contacted the Consumer Service five times because of this element - but
each and every time I got excactly the same wrong replacement parts. So I
gave up and I still have never seen that piece in reality (since #5222 is
the only set to include it!). What do you say about replacement now - do you
think five trials without results is reasonable?
And now back to Legends and Trains :)
> But are these production problems going to stop me from buying a 10001
> Metroliner? No way.
No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
own past. It's confusing and I somehow don't like it! I don't have logical
arguments for my point of view, but I would rather NOT have seen re-releases
in the way they are! A few years back it has been possible to release #2150,
the red trains station that was originally sold in yellow. That was such a
great idea and I don't see any reason for doing the same with the Legends
line. Did you ever wonder what a Guarded Inn might look like with tan
instead of red, darkgrey instead of light and brown instead of black? Now -
that would have been something to make *really everyone* happy!
And at last - when does TLC finally come up with a re-issue that I do *not*
have the original set of already?
> And I'm sure Lego would be more than happy to send Christian a new maiden
> mini-figure.
Well, I will call them tomorrow and see if they can send me a new figure
without claiming the broken one. I would rather keep the damaged one - after
all I think some AFOLs would trade ten correct ones to get this "infected"
head, haha!
> I have seen your pictures in Brickshelf, but I don't think there has been
> much active discussion about quality control. At least in the forums I
> follow (.general, .trains, .marketplace) (but feel free to direct me to the
> threads if I'm wrong.)
Yes, another strange curiosity. On www.1000steine.de there is a lot of
discussion about the latest quality and many are upset about it. Could you
explain to me why the majority of Lugnet members does not care about that
extreme loss of quality - don't you care as much about the bricks?
> I don't get this point. What do you have to worry about with the new
> Metroliners? That they will decrease the "value" of your collection?
Well, you probably don't want to understand it. Ben came up with really good
arguments that you ignored. I agree with him in all aspects - the new sets
are too close to the first releases and in long-term they will harm the LEGO
brand.
I feel sad whenever I see another Legend has been killed! I will buy them,
but not like the circumstances of getting them.
[But I was soooo happy a few years back when #2150 was released]
P.S.: Thanks Ben for uploading the images to Brickshelf faster than I added
them on http://www.brickmaster.de/Guarded/
Bye, Christian --- xTIAN.oO
--------------------------------------------------
Lugnet Member #479 -- The World is full of AFOLs !
mail: xtian@brickmaster.de web: www.brickmaster.de
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> No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
> versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
> sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
> becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
> not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
> parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
> someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
> own past.
Sounds like you're complaining about a loss of nostalgia. I think you're in the
minority, though. People who have the original set will feel a bit slighted, but
people who don't have it feel like they're receiving a gift from Lego. That's
just the way it is.
> Did you ever wonder what a Guarded Inn might look like with tan
> instead of red, darkgrey instead of light and brown instead of black? Now -
> that would have been something to make *really everyone* happy!
Not me--I don't like the new colors. Anything other than the classic colors just
looks cheap and Juniorized to me.
> Well, you probably don't want to understand it. Ben came up with really good
> arguments that you ignored.
I think he understood it, but that doesn't mean he has to agree. Lugnet's a big
community, and people will continue to have different opinions about these
issues.
> I agree with him in all aspects - the new sets
> are too close to the first releases and in long-term they will harm the LEGO
> brand.
How will they harm the Lego brand?
I understand your point about quality control. It's pretty sad that there have
been so many errors in recent sets and that the printing is not as good.
I still think it's great that Lego is letting kids get some of these classic
sets, though. Just because a book is reprinted, it doesn't mean the first
edition loses its value. Lego may be a collectible, but first and foremost it's
a toy, and I know I'll have fun with the Legends sets I buy.
Jacob
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To All,
> > No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
> > versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
> > sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
> > becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
> > not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
> > parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
> > someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
> > own past.
That is a very interesting notion. I saved up and bought the Metroliner when
it first came out, and I still have it today, and I love it too death.
However, just because it is coming out in a new form, does not mean I lost
that memory. I would hope that legions of new people that have never
experienced that set would have those memories, and maybe in the future,
have mor emembers of LUGNET and LUGS and so on.
> Sounds like you're complaining about a loss of nostalgia. I think you're in
> the minority, though. People who have the original set will feel a bit
> slighted,
Well, I for one am glad they are coming out with it again, I am not slighted
in the least. Compared to the 4561, etc. it is an awesome prospect for new
people to have a crack at this set, without having to spend 400+ for it.
> but
> people who don't have it feel like they're receiving a gift from Lego. That's
> just the way it is.
Right.
> > Did you ever wonder what a Guarded Inn might look like with tan
> > instead of red, darkgrey instead of light and brown instead of black? Now -
> > that would have been something to make *really everyone* happy!
>
> Not me--I don't like the new colors. Anything other than the classic colors
> just
> looks cheap and Juniorized to me.
Well, YMMV on that one. If you want the Gaurded Inn in other colors, go for it!
I like the classic colors myself.
> > Well, you probably don't want to understand it. Ben came up with really good
> > arguments that you ignored.
I read them, although I disagree with them, that is his POV.
> I think he understood it, but that doesn't mean he has to agree. Lugnet's a
> big community, and people will continue to have different opinions about
> these issues.
Among others. : )
> > I agree with him in all aspects - the new sets
> > are too close to the first releases and in long-term they will harm the LEGO
> > brand.
Now that is very profound. How can they be hurt by making money on a
re-released set? I can't disagree more.
> I understand your point about quality control. It's pretty sad that there have
> been so many errors in recent sets and that the printing is not as good.
They need to look at that. The whole line has suffered over the last few
years, especially the SW sets started that.
> I still think it's great that Lego is letting kids get some of these classic
> sets, though. Just because a book is reprinted, it doesn't mean the first
> edition loses its value. Lego may be a collectible, but first and foremost
> it's a toy, and I know I'll have fun with the Legends sets I buy.
Indeed.
Scott S.
--
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> > > No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
> > > versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
> > > sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
> > > becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
> > > not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
> > > parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
> > > someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
> > > own past.
Wow, that strikes me as as a little strange. Seeing the set
re-released shouldn't damage your nostalgia for the set.
All those happy memories are still there!
I bought a metroliner off the shelf in 1995. It was getting rare
at the time - it had just disappeared from the catalog so I
knew it was time to splurge if I wanted it.
I loved it, had lots of fun showing it off, couldn't ever stand
the idea of disassembling it, and I don't see why other people
getting new metroliners would take those happy feelings away from
me.
Basically I'm thrilled at the idea of buying another one, so I
can make a much longer train. Or at least buying a few of the
coveted club cars! Yippee!
> That is a very interesting notion. I saved up and bought the Metroliner when
> it first came out, and I still have it today, and I love it too death.
> However, just because it is coming out in a new form, does not mean I lost
> that memory. I would hope that legions of new people that have never
> experienced that set would have those memories, and maybe in the future,
> have mor emembers of LUGNET and LUGS and so on.
These re-releases strike me as pure goodness.
I do understand that some people would like for them to be
re-released in new colors or the like, both to preserve the
collectability of the originals and to offer more choices to
fans who already have the originals, but I'm glad that the metroliner
will have its original colors. So I can buy another and add it
to my existing train!
I didn't mind the idea of the Metrostation getting re-released
in a new color - I thought that was pretty neat, but I don't
see why that should be a requirement for the Legends series.
I say, make them as close as they can be to the originals. The
originals will still be worth more, particularly if they have
their original packaging. If I was a Castle Completist, I'd
sure rather have the original yellow box for the guarded inn
than a gray-scale one.
Anyway, once these sets sell out, people can go back to speculating
and auctioning off these sets. It's not like a metroliner is
suddenly going to become passe just because it's been re-released.
Buy a Legends guarded inn now, I can guarantee that you'll be able
to make a profit on it when the re-release is discontinued.
I hope that this goes on for months, with dozens of classic sets
brought back over the next few years. It would go a long way towards
curing my distaste towards juniorization of the current lines - at
least some good non-juniorized sets would always be available, even
if they're copies of old sets. If LEGO can't design 'em like that
any more, so be it. Sell us the old stuff.
Of course, I'd prefer a boost in design quality of current
offerings, too. But I can't look this gift horse (the Legends
line) in the mouth and find anything wrong with it.
--
Jeff <jthompson@esker.com> "Float on a river, forever and ever, Emily"
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<SNIP!>
The only complaint/issue that I have with the Legends/re-issue/Direct
merchandise is that I have to figure out (a) what I want, (b) what I need
and (c) which will be unavailable to me later as a Direct purchase item?!?
I LOVE that the Guarded Inn is re-released, I bought four! I love the parts
in them! I NEED those colors!! As for the Metroliner (etc.) in trains,
well, those NEW Trains (you know pick your color and design) and the NEW
cargo cars are the best new product out of LEGO in about 10 years!! They
are original and allow me to build my train set with what elements I like,
not to mention the G-R-E-A-T parts assortment available from S@H!!!!! I
could make a Train BETTER than the Metroliner!!!!! Ha-ha-ha-ha!!!! But!
Yes there is a but!! It is this, the Legends Metroliner is a lot cheaper
than my alternatives at S@H and very well built. Most of what I buy now is
for parts, so that is my only consideration with the Metroliner, is it worth
it? Now if they had done the Airport Shuttle, no question would be brought
up of value! You know, Collector value only matters if you have the
original model in the original box -sealed-. But then, what is the point?
As a LEGO unbuilt is no LEGO and of no real value, unless a nut wants to buy
it mint and build it! I am such a nut who must decide where to put his
money, and I'm a-leanin' way over to the NEW Trains and a little away from
the Metroliner re-do. What I really want to know is how this Limited
collector series of Pirate sets is going to be available, and for how long?
That gives me lots to consider, and I find myself scaling back retail store
purchases in favor of Direct product. If LEGO would offer more original
sets, I might be more excited. The Metroliner just doesn't *excite* me like
the Guarded Inn did, as the parts are all in my bins with all the new bulk
items available. And those NEW Trains are nifty keen-o!!
2-cents,
-Aaron-
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In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
> Yes, another strange curiosity. On www.1000steine.de there is a lot of
> discussion about the latest quality and many are upset about it. Could you
> explain to me why the majority of Lugnet members does not care about that
> extreme loss of quality - don't you care as much about the bricks?
Well, I don't know about a "majority" opinion, but I am a Lugnet member and
I think the quality control issue is a VERY big issue. I am not so hopped
up about the issue of how the elements are actually molded, my bigger issue
remains the printing of elements. I once noted some time ago that 18 out of
22 heads of the Defense Archer #4811 came to me misprinted, some were just
smudged whereas others were printed off the face so that the head had a
missing beard and such. Getting replacements was no big deal, but they DID
want the misprinted heads back again! I dunno...for my trouble I'd assumed
I could keep the heads and make some customs, but no!
The printing of the elements has been getting worse for some time too. It
really must stop!
-- Hop-Frog
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In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
>
> If interested, you may now also find a close-up of the head piece here:
> http://www.brickmaster.de/Guarded/ [scroll down to updated]
Wow!
If the piece wasn't malformed/misshapen, I'd pay big money
to buy that head!
Obviously not the response you were hoping for. :^)
I can't judge from the photos how bad the printing on the torsos
of the figures is.
I've been hoping that the gold paint used in the print on the
re-release minifigs won't wear off as easily as it did on
the original minifigs. I have so many "crossed-axe" torsos
with the gold rubbed off. It seems like a single day of
carrying a figure around in a pocket was enough to wipe off
a lot of the gold paint.
I would accept some blurriness in return for the paint not
wearing off. ie, if the new printing methods improve the
resiliency of the paint in exchange for some blurriness, I think
I won't mind. But do the torsos look *really* bad?
Perhaps a scan zoomed WAY in on both an old and a new torso
would show the differences.
--
Jeff <jthompson@esker.com> "Float on a river, forever and ever, Emily"
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I think Ben is right. first of all, lego should stop juniorizing their new
sets, let alone their vastly popular train sets. i think the 9v train sets
were great, up until the 4560-or the US version the 4561. the 4559 looked
ok, but with alittle customizing and work, it could turn out to be a great
looking set.(in my opinion-with my MOC 4559). people wonder why Lego is
loosing money...and they dont have any idea. ill give you an idea why,
BECAUSE THE NEW LEGO SETS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE, AND KINDA SUCK. excuse my
language but its true. they are selling for more money, and have less
pieces. i look at older catalogs and wish every night that lego will have a
change of opinion, and start making better sets so everyone can enjoy and
afford them. as for a remake of the Metroliner in different colors,
especally the darker grey version that everyone and their mothers want lego
to bring back, IM ALL FOR IT!!! I myself do not currently have a 4558, and i
am looking for one in mint condition, but if Lego makes a newer,
unjuniorized one, ill be the first to buy it.
Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
we're happy and their happy.
As for Ben, the owner of Bens World of ABS, and the member of the FGLTC, a
very respectible Lego Train Club, he is very helpful and kind. I had the
privilege to talk to him about making a new LTC, one for New Yorkers. He
gave me some great suggestions on how to fix my site. I am happy to talk to
him and other lego fans. please email me at RAZOREDGE442@aol.com with any
info on getting a petition started for a new Metroliner, and also please
check out my BRAND NEW LEGO TRAIN CLUB , the GREATER NEW YORK LEGO TRAIN
CLUB!!!!the web address is http://gnyltc.homestead.com/clubinformation.html
thanks and happy building. JOE
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> Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> we're happy and their happy.
Wait a minute. I thought lego IS reproducing the metroliner. Isn't it and
the club car the August Lego Legends? Or did I miss something???
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In lugnet.trains, Alexander Johnston writes:
> > Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> > they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> > listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> > unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> > we're happy and their happy.
>
>
> Wait a minute. I thought lego IS reproducing the metroliner. Isn't it and
> the club car the August Lego Legends? Or did I miss something???
Umm, yes. They are re-releaseing these sets. And you probably are missing
SOMETHING if you own any LEGO or have ever bought large quantities of said
brick.
What I want to know, is when are the Collector Pirate sets coming out!?
Any info I may have missed?
-Aaron-
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> Umm, yes. They are re-releaseing these sets. And you probably are missing
> SOMETHING if you own any LEGO or have ever bought large quantities of said
> brick.
> What I want to know, is when are the Collector Pirate sets coming out!?
> Any info I may have missed?
> -Aaron-
Ha Ha. Very funny. :-)
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In lugnet.trains, Alexander Johnston writes:
> > Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> > they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> > listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> > unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> > we're happy and their happy.
>
>
> Wait a minute. I thought lego IS reproducing the metroliner. Isn't it and
> the club car the August Lego Legends? Or did I miss something???
Lego is reproducing these GREAT SETS?(4558 and 4547)? will there be any
packaging or differences to the trains that are visible?where can i get more
info on these new sets? Joe Franco
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> Lego is reproducing these GREAT SETS?(4558 and 4547)? will there be any
> packaging or differences to the trains that are visible?where can i get more
> info on these new sets? Joe Franco
There might be some minor packaging differences, but the set itself should
be exactly the same compared to the 1992 Metroliner. Same thing goes for
the club car as well. I am now scambling to get off my unemployed ass and
start scraping up some cash to get these sets.
One more thing. The little number for the re-released metroliner is 10001
and the club car is 10002. Punch those numbers up on the lugnet database
and you should get a little more info.
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"Alexander Johnston" <Areas-4@excite.com> writes:
> There might be some minor packaging differences
The new sets tend to come out in black/white boxes with new set
numbers. I think that is beyond minor differences.
> but the set itself should be exactly the same compared to the 1992
> Metroliner.
We will probably see differences in minifig elements (when was the new
torso and head introduced?) as well as differences in stickers or
patterned parts.
There are also some elements which change over the years, so it will
probably be possible to tell the new set from the old one. Typically,
minor details such as hollow vs non-hollow studs tend to change from
time to time on certain elements.
Fredrik
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In lugnet.trains, Joe Franco writes:
>
> I think Ben is right. first of all, lego should stop juniorizing their new
> sets, let alone their vastly popular train sets. i think the 9v train sets
> were great, up until the 4560-or the US version the 4561. the 4559 looked
> ok, but with alittle customizing and work, it could turn out to be a great
> looking set.(in my opinion-with my MOC 4559). people wonder why Lego is
> loosing money...and they dont have any idea. ill give you an idea why,
> BECAUSE THE NEW LEGO SETS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE, AND KINDA SUCK. excuse my
> language but its true. they are selling for more money, and have less
> pieces. i look at older catalogs and wish every night that lego will have a
> change of opinion, and start making better sets so everyone can enjoy and
> afford them. as for a remake of the Metroliner in different colors,
> especally the darker grey version that everyone and their mothers want lego
> to bring back, IM ALL FOR IT!!! I myself do not currently have a 4558, and i
> am looking for one in mint condition, but if Lego makes a newer,
> unjuniorized one, ill be the first to buy it.
> Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> we're happy and their happy.
> As for Ben, the owner of Bens World of ABS, and the member of the FGLTC, a
> very respectible Lego Train Club, he is very helpful and kind. I had the
> privilege to talk to him about making a new LTC, one for New Yorkers. He
> gave me some great suggestions on how to fix my site. I am happy to talk to
> him and other lego fans. please email me at RAZOREDGE442@aol.com with any
> info on getting a petition started for a new Metroliner, and also please
> check out my BRAND NEW LEGO TRAIN CLUB , the GREATER NEW YORK LEGO TRAIN
> CLUB!!!!the web address is http://gnyltc.homestead.com/clubinformation.html
> thanks and happy building. JOE
Well Joe, thats a good start for the GNYLTC. I expect your membership to
steadily grow and thrive.-Harvey
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In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
> Yes, that kind of service is *usually* okay. However, for example, about one
> year back I did order LEGO set #5222 from S@H and one piece was missing! The
> wierd thing is that it has NEVER been replaced:
>
> http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/new_ele2.jpg
> [ from: http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/52XX.html ]
Well, I have to add that the Consumer Service is not only *usually* okay -
it certainly rocks and is the best Consumer Service I have ever heard of! Of
course I am sad about missing elements and defected parts - but the two
pieces I claimed above have arrived today for free - and I haven't even
contacted the Consumer Service, they have reacted to my posting here on
Lugnet and sent the pieces to me in Germany! Excellent!
I had to add that to my original posting - my opinion about Legends will not
change though - it is a nostalgica thing and I'm sad that excactly the same
stuff is coming back. I had hopes that more old style sets would come out
(such as the recent train wagons which are awesome).
Bye, Christian --- xTIAN.oO
--------------------------------------------------
Lugnet Member #479 -- The World is full of AFOLs !
mail: xtian@brickmaster.de web: www.brickmaster.de
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Christian Gemuenden wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
>
>
>
> Well, I have to add that the Consumer Service is not only *usually* okay -
> it certainly rocks and is the best Consumer Service I have ever heard of! Of
> course I am sad about missing elements and defected parts - but the two
> pieces I claimed above have arrived today for free - and I haven't even
> contacted the Consumer Service, they have reacted to my posting here on
> Lugnet and sent the pieces to me in Germany! Excellent!
Now *THAT'S* what I call customer service!! {:^D
(I wonder if they would give me a ride to the airport next week?)
-John
>
>
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Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > > I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans • if
> > > TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
> >
> > If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> > junior and low quality crap like this.
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
> >
> > You surely never have heard any complaining by me about too high prices of • Lego
> > sets. I want high quality stuff (like TLC made it in the past). If you haven't
> > noticed: new bricks have higher tolerances (wich is bad) and are more weak. So
> > they get scratches and are warped even as new bricks sometimes. If Lego wants
> > to make profit with crap, they have to look for other consumers than me.
>
> Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
Woha! A Mona Lisa head! You lucky guy! (And he's complaining!!! LOL)
Dean
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Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> >
> > > I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> > > said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no • advantage
> > > for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> > > helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
> >
> > No. Wrong.
> >
> > TLC gets no benefit from things sold on the secondary market. It doesn't • allow
> > them to "artificially" inflate prices on "new" items... how many posts do we
> > see on Lugnet complaining about the "price per piece" going up?
> >
> > The only people that benefit from the price of a used (or out-of-production
> > [OOP] MISB) set being driven up by collectors is... collectors. Actually, not
> > even the collectors really benefit- the only people that benefit are those • that
> > sit on multiple sealed copies of an old set, waiting for the price to go up so
> > they can sell them at a profit. This is commonly known as "speculating" and
> > the people that do it are known as "speculators".
>
> And what about the "normal" people who go into their dark ages? Lots of people
> know about the secondary market for used Lego toys and they do benefit by
> selling their used stuff.
>
> I think high prices for used stuff make it easier for Lego to sell their new
> stuff. I can buy Duplo for a child and it's no problem to ged rid of it
> a few years later. I think even those parly nuts prices for MISB sets make
> people look at our hobby and make them sure about, it is a serious hobby, and
> not a childish one.
>
> > TLC re-releasing the sets will benefit *everyone* except the speculators.
> >
> > Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
> > Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
> > TLC. Before now, if I wanted a Metroliner, I would have to look for one from
> > someone else, taking a bigger chunk of my LEGO budget- and NONE of that money
> > would go to TLC! Getting some of that money flowing back to TLC is good for
> > not only TLC, but also for LEGO fans. In case you hadn't noticed, TLC has • been
> > having financial trouble lately. I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans if
> > TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
>
> If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> junior and low quality crap like this.
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
Ben, we ALL get bad parts. Most of the time they are standard bits and we just use
one from our sets. If it's an important part we phone LEGO and get another. It
happens. I get a bad or chewed part in 1 in 25 sets on average. That's less then 1%
error. (That is the commonly accepted failure rate for electronics) So in this day
and age of Mass production I think LEGO is doing a good job. I agree some of there
molds could use some TLC but LEGO is cutting edge on the injection molding.
Taking pictures of all your issues and posting them is pretty sad really. You've
lost all credibility with me.
Dean
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In lugnet.trains, Dean Husby writes:
> Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes: • [snip]
> >
> > If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> > junior and low quality crap like this.
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
> Taking pictures of all your issues and posting them is pretty sad really. • You've
> lost all credibility with me.
Sorry Dean,
but that sound like the ancient Roman method to me: kill the bringer of the bad
news and "solve" a problem by doing so.
If I loose my credibility, because I collect a few pictures of bad parts, that
has to be a kind of credit I'm happy to get rid of...
"Leg Godt!"
Ben
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
> Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
> TLC.
You bring up an excellent point, Eric, namely the fact that these Legend
re-releases might cause many of us to cross themes. For example, I've never
been a castle head, but I will undoubtedly buy one of the Guarded Inn sets.
Who knows, perhaps the Legends will spur a whole new cross-pollination of
builders >and< collectors.
Expand well,
Andreas Stabno
http://www.lugnet.com/~19/
XFUT lego.direct
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I thought Lego was a company that makes toys, to be played with.
Trading cards are made to be collected, not to be used as drink coasters.
If a Lego set is in demand, then Lego will make more of that set because to
them it indicates that the sets being played with. They wont stop making
that item just because they think that set will be a collectible. What
benefit does that provide to them?
Are we perhaps getting confused between whats a collectible, and whats an
item in demand?
Santosh
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel writes:
> > Here we go again...
> >
> > "Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
> > news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> > > As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also • a
> > > collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> > > Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things • and
> > > play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the • "players"
> > > want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to • have
> > > rare sets.
> >
> > Ugh.
> >
> > Ben, I really do respect you and your building achievements, but I have to
> > disagree here.
> >
> > In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
> > fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
>
> Only the prices for the collectors item. I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
> for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
>
> > I am a builder, not a collector. While I do have a "Lego collection", I
> > don't purchase the product to see the price rise, or to sit models on a
> > glass shelf never to be touched again. I don't purchase the product just for
> > the sake of having something that few others have. I don't purchase the
> > product just for the satisfaction of owning it.
>
> Sometime I do all the above mentioned: lots of other people do the same. What's
> wrong about it?
>
> > I open all my sets.
>
> I do it in the same way, but I do not damn those who collect MISB sets. Why
> should I do. They share my hobby (even if it is in a strongly different way,
> but I do not damn Bionicle fans either.)
>
> > I build
> > models and I can't wait to see what my daughter does with Lego.
>
>
> > > ...and nearly all people around
> > > have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> > > weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
> >
> > Wrong. How do you know what sets I have?
> > I don't have a Metroliner. Or a Club Car. I will not pay $250 for a used
> > 4558. I won't pay $350+ for a MISB 4558. And I would much rather purchase a
> > set from directly from S@H instead of on the secondary market.
>
> But tell me why do you need a Metroliner, but are not willing to pay its
> marketprice? Would you have had a problem with a evidently changed Metroliner
> (for e.g. in dark gray)?
>
> > > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> > > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> > > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than
> > 4560.
> >
> > And what evidence do you have of this? In my opinion, all signs point to the
> > fact that the 9v train line is alive and kicking. And the models are getting
> > better and better.
>
> Trains are alive, but I see them not become better and better. 3225 was a lame
> set, 4560 also, 2126 was only a good spare part box. My own train and the
> new waggons are quite ok (back on the level of the mid-nineties, but not better
> than anything from the 80ies.)
>
> > (and as an aside, I would rather see smaller, similar
> > themed cars as separate sets rather than big $140 sets)
>
> I agree.
>
> >
> > > If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on • the
> > > one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, • 4551 is
> > > a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> > > fantastic set!)
> >
> > Again, what evidence do you have of this assumption? I doubt there will be
> > another train-oriented Legends release for a long time.
>
> I was speaking of the assumption that the now released line of Legends became a
> big success and make lots of profit. Surely TLC would follow then this way and
> the best sets of the 9V line have been 4558, 4547, 4551 and 4536. the last two
> one are "in danger" to be re-released.
>
> > I'm sure Brad & Lego
> > Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have equal
> > representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
> > fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer.
>
> Yes, I fear this will be one of the next dead legends. Would anybody have a
> problem with a new Classic Space Logo (or a mirrored one)?
>
> > In the meantime, I just don't
> > think Lego would re-release another full sized train set for a long, long
> > time.
>
> That's also speculation, but I agree. If each month means just one or two new
> legends, there have to be first some other themes: Technic (953 or 8880?),
> Pirates (6385?), Space (497 or 6954?), Town, Western, ....
>
> > The Legends are helpful for
> > a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
> But they do not need a 100% copy and kids do not buy via S@H at www.lego.com
> anyway.
> > b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
> > fantastic sets. • Adult could affort the real sets or live with not 100% copies either
> > c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
> > secondary market. • I would prefer to own one "real" legend instead of 5 cheap copies of one...
> > d) Anyone who wants awesome Lego sets.
>
> The Sopwith Camel is a great set: better TLC invents new cool sets on a
> quality level like that.
>
> > Ben - I'm sorry to hear that LD has taken the wind out of your collectable
> > sails.
>
> It has not: thye will never re-release the 139 and others. ;-))
>
> > But there is nothing stopping you from still enjoying your closet
> > full of mint-in-box 4558's and other sets.
>
> I have bought some MISB train sets during the past years (even over 30 years
> old ones!): I have opened them all. I'm no MISB-freak, but I know about friends
> who are: still - what's wrong about?
>
> Even if people try to make profit by buying sealed stuff: Is making profit
> suddenly wrong?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ben
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