Subject:
|
Re: Are we all too nice?
|
Newsgroups:
|
lugnet.off-topic.debate
|
Date:
|
Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:06:57 GMT
|
Viewed:
|
211 times
|
| |
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Todd Lehman writes:
> This is ultimately a CFD (call for discussion) for a new newsgroup, but also
> asking what I think may be an important question. It's a taboo question, so
> do try to keep an open mind.
>
> The question is: Are we trying to be too nice to one another?
I don't think so, no. More below, obviously.
> The question itself isn't too important, but how we approach the answer is.
>
> A related question: What are the larger psychological and sociological trends
> that emerge in an environment where everyone is expected always to play well
> with others -- expected in the ultra-polite sense? How natural is it to be
> polite all the time and what are the psychological side-effects of being
> expected to do so?
I don't think this is an issue - or shouldn't be, anyway. No one is (to my
knowledge) plugged into Lugnet 24 by 7, so the constraints Lugnet imposes
are not inherently carried over into other aspects of our lives. People
spend a lot of time at their jobs, where similar 'play well' constraints
often apply, without needing a special office in the building where they can
go and yell at the wall.
> One trend I've noticed is that here (at the LUGNET discussion groups) people
> seem to get much more upset when someone acts "incorrectly" as judged by group
> norms than people did in RTL or than people do in other small communities.
> Oh, people screamed back louder in RTL than they do here, but I what I see is
> that people are actually more upset here when it happens.
Someone else posted that it isn't that people are more upset here, it's that
complaining actually serves a purpose in a monitored forum. One of my hot
buttons is marketing interfering with discussion - I can't do anything about
it on RTL, so I don't - and in fact will leave if it gets bad enough (which
it did, and I did). If it happens here, I can accomplish something by
complaining, so I do.
> Assuming it is true, I doubt it is entirely because expectations or standards
> are higher. I think that's a large part of it, but I think it's also due to
> the fact that higher standards make it more pleasant for a larger and wider
> variety of people. For example, only stinky people show up or stick around
> in a stinky environment. But if someone makes a stink in a non-stinky
> environment, it really gets noticed -- not just because of higher standards
> but because the non-stinky place appealed to more people in the first place,
> so they stuck around -- and that makes for a greater percentage of people who
> can't or don't want to deal an occasional stink.
Yup. Case in point --> me. I stopped reading RTL back in 97 because market
noise was drowning out the conversation. I read Lugnet.
> Now, don't get me wrong -- I think having higher standards and higher
> expectations is a Good Thing and the more people that show up to enjoy the
> site and share ideas, etc., the better.
>
> But in our lofty goals of trying to set higher and higher standards, we
> mustn't lose sight of the fact that we're still only human -- we have
> emotions and we get angry and we need to vent and argue until we're red in
> the face sometimes before we can come back and look at something more
> objectively. It's not a pretty picture, but, for better or for worse, it's
> part of what we are.
Yup. We're only human, and we will vent and argue no matter what mechanisms
are set up to shunt our venting and arguing elsewhere.
> Now let me switch gears.
<snip>
> I am wondering what people would think if there were a group
>
> lugnet.off-topic.debate.flame
>
> where, basically, anything goes: rudeness, complete gruffness, even
> profanity. (When I say anything, BTW, I mean anything but copyright
> violations or other illegalities, etc.)
I don't think it's something Lugnet needs to do, or should do. Lugnet is
not responsible for my temper. If I tend to build up steam, it is my
responsibility to find a release valve, not Lugnet's. Society is replete
with release valves - they're harder to avoid than they are to find.
> So the purpose of this group would not be to encourage or foster flamewars,
> but to give them a relatively isolated place to occur -- and as we all know,
> they do come up from time to time, even here in our friendly little corner of
> the online universe.
They'll still occur, and they'll still happen where they aren't supposed to.
> My ultimate concern here, thus, is that by all of us always trying to be so
> nice to each other and always feeling like we have to watch what we say, that
> creates stress on us which builds and builds (pun unintended :-). Finally
> when it reaches critical mass, things get messier than (I think) they would
> have been if we didn't feel we always had to be so godforsaken polite.
I have yet to see anything on Lugnet (including the recent uproar) get as
messy as many things in RTL did (including the possible progenitor of the
recent uproar). Things *seem* messier, because the room is otherwise kept
neat, but it's an illusion.
> I'd like to hear your thoughts.
>
> But before you answer, think about it for a day or two.
>
> I mean really think about it.
>
> Think about why the .off-topic.debate group exists and how LUGNET would be
> different without it. Pick any group and think about how LUGNET would be
> different without it. See if you can come up with three reasons for and
> against a .off-topic.debate.flame group. Certainly it's not a win-win, but
> I'm looking for a cumulative-effect improvement.
OK.
For:
Having a steam valve close at hand when something gets you riled can help
someone keep a level head and not fly off the handle.
It's reversable.
A really well-crafted rant is a work of art.
Against:
Self-fulfilling prophecy trap. Having the newsgroup might encourage
flamewars that otherwise wouldn't have escalated.
To keep from spilling out into the rest of Lugnet, it needs virtual walls
around it (no cross-posting, follow-up limitations, etc), but the same
virtual walls will make it less convenient for the people who (feel they)
need to vent before they can discuss something rationally.
Unnecessary duplication of effort. Society in general has multiple ways of
dealing with stress, and all you are proposing is to add another one,
specific to here. As others have noted, venting on Lugnet is often the
result of stress elsewhere - if people are uninclined to deal with that
stress before coming here, they aren't likely to deal with it once they arrive.
Definitions. What is a flame, and where do you draw the line at what
belongs in a .flame, and what is OK somewhere else?
OK, that's 4 against, but I admit I'm biased.
James
James Brown's Parts Sale: http://www.brickbay.com/store.asp?p=jamesb
4500+ parts, averaging $0.10 per piece.
|
|
Message is in Reply To:
61 Messages in This Thread:
  
 
- Entire Thread on One Page:
- Nested:
All | Brief | Compact | Dots
Linear:
All | Brief | Compact
|
|
|
|
