 | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | (...) "Think of the morality of our women/children/society/etc" has been the cry behind censorship since time immemorial. It's always in the name of "protection." TJ had it right; those who would sacrifice liberty for some small measure of security (...) (20 years ago, 4-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote: <snip> (...) I hope the 'better minds' will prevail in Texas, where legislation is being passed in which cheerleaders aren't allowed to 'shake their booty' anymore-- (URL) both these (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | (...) Everyone wants freedom, but no one is willing to take responsibility for their actions, and so the GP is forced to control irresponsible people's behavior through their representatives, their elected government officials. We live in a free (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | (...) More to the point is the guys doing the legislation want to lock things down but doin't know where that line is--"banning 'some' Shakespeare"--which parts? Banning some cheerleader moves--which moves. So it's not that people aren't accepting (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) That's key, IMO. If we're all so fond of Absolute Morality, why are our Duly Elected Representatives so reluctant to address these society-damning issues in absolutely clear terms? Especially if, as we're endlessly told by Dobson, Falwell, and (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Absolute Morality boils down to how we treat each other. This is directly related to issues of respect and responsibility. A breakdown on either side of the equation (you verses me) creates societal rifts. (...) Eeeeuuu. Both are equally (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) John, at last you're speaking like an atheist! Is there anything you want to tell me? 8^) By the way, Absolute Morality in this construction exists just fine without appeals to a higher, supernatural power. (...) Ideally, sure; the elected (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) :-0 Not in the least! That understanding comes directly from Jesus Himself: "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another." (...) Yeah, that you are closer to being a (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Maybe, if it weren't for that whole pesky "faith" thing... (...) But that construction breaks from the "absolute" as soon as human faith comes into it. An actual revelation for you is just hearsay for me, so that's where "absolute" falls (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) But you can't just play in your little room of Science and have no opinions about concrete things that Science cannot address. I am speaking about Creation. (...) We have been given intellects, and some revelation along the way. Heck, we may (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: snip (...) Humble people don't go around telling other people that they have to start taking the 'specks out of their eyes', especially via legislation. And honest people realize that we're all flawed, (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) You lost me there. What's a concrete thing that science can't address? (...) Hmm? Hardwired how? Hardwired to believe in him (in spite of free will?) Or hardwired to want to believe in him? Not me. (...) Approximately one zillion things fueled (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) "I am speaking about Creation." (...) I was referring to our conscience. The knowledge deep down of right and wrong. (...) I'm citing a book whose title eludes me. I'll see if I can find it. In the mean time, I'll accept merely 1 million out (...) (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) How's that concrete? I'm not seeing the creation myth as at all concrete. (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Everything that exists had to come from something. Whether you want to call Event 1 "God" or just "Some Random Occurance", neither fit into the model of Science. Even if you want to say that "the universe always was", that is still beyond (...) (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) That's a false dilemma. The current (and correct) response is: "We currently don't have enough data to answer that question." (...) Suppose that one says "Current data suggests that the universe has always existed, in some form." How is that (...) (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) But that's a disengenuous assertment. There will never be enough "data" to answer that question. It is unknowable. (...) Because there isn't or never will be any such data. The scientific method cannot explain the origin of something without (...) (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Let's throw out the term "Creation" in this context, because it stacks the deck in favor your argument. Additionally, we've previously discussed the imprecision of term "Science" with a capital-S, so can we refer instead to science? The (...) (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I don't think that's quite right. On the one hand, let's think about lightning for a second. We have a pretty good idea how that gets generated nowadays. But for a long time science had nothing to say on the matter. Not enough data. Hence, to (...) (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) But that doesn't really get us anywhere. At most, Person B can say "I've thought it over, and I think you're correct about X. Of course, I have no way to verify that X was communicated to you via revelation, but I still like it." So X, whether (...) (20 years ago, 9-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | (...) And that's a way of looking at it. But again, to make the case--how is a texas high school cheerleader affecting you directly? And how is 'some' Shakespeare affecting you? I choose not to read things I'm not interested in reading. I choose to (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) But the upside here is that Howard moved. He's now on Sirius and free of FCC "control" of what's appropriate. That's a good thing. It means the market will decide whether his speech is wanted or not, rather than some kloomonk in FCC (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | (...) That just may be my new favorite word. What the heck is its etymology? Heck, I still get a giggle from (URL) Dave! (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) IBM Jargon... (1) Citing without intent to infringe, from an online version of same located (URL) here> among (URL) other> places: mark of Kloomok n. Official indication that a product has been released from PID. After one M. Kloomok, the (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek wrote: <snip> (...) Do we have that on .geek? That is so cool! This is one of the huge list o' reasons why Larry is good for this communiity--a wealth of knowledge (some would say useless, but I like it! (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Which? IBMJARG or the NHD? the NHD is already there... Twice. Which confuses me. Did I do that??? (...) Oh Dave... you've got curator now, remember? FIX IT! (...) Thanks! ++Lar (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Adrian Egli
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| | | | | | | | (...) I don't know how long this "free of FCC" will last now that they (the FCC and others) are barking at cable and satellite TV providers to be more (URL) "family friendly">, whatever that means. Adr. (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Well, I like Macbeth quite a bit, so I guess that part affects me. But most of the sonnets don't affect me at all. Ditto Romeo & Juliet. Dave! (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | (...) But don't you see-- there is no definitive line! The line is where ever the sensibilities of a society is at any given point in time. Right now the current sensibilities of our society are being offended by certain individuals and society is (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) To be honest, the culture war has been going on since before the first human saw another human from outside his family. The culture war continues to this day and will continue until we're all assimilated: it's called society. I accept that (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Perhaps. But in all honesty, what are those values? (...) Look, I don't wish a "Theocracy" any more than you do. But I do wish a society where its citizens respect each others' rights. I believe that only a society that has a respect for a (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Geez, I don't know if I can delineate them concisely, but they entail non-aggression, a respect for fact, and an acceptance that, lacking evidence to the contrary, this is all we have so let's all make the best of it. (...) I believe you. (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) and I honestly think that the envelope-pushing, rights-disdaining Religious Right will lead us to a theocratic dictatorship. Me, I'll take anarchy over that any day. ... but then, I'm a minarchist after all.. (...) Um, ya??? What was it you (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | (...) Well, I will be by your side to see that it doesn't happen. (...) Uh, I don't think that you've fully considered the ramifications of such a silly statement. (...) What is that, exactly? (...) Touché! JOHN (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Cool. But I have my doubts. (...) Uh, don't be so sure. Theocratic dictatorships are nasty brutish places. I prefer some government to none, but I prefer none to overarching. (...) I prefer the least practically possible amount of (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Huh? Which Dave are we talking about here? Dave! (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Thought I was talking to Dave K... my bad... sorry about that, Dave! You're a closet (small L) libertarian already anyway, so never mind, Dave! (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | (...) You was talking to me, and then there was an interjection from Dave! Eh, too many Daves!!! Dave K (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | (...) Really? I only know about the single factorial variety Dave! JOHN (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Call us Legion. (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) Legion of DOOM is more like it, Dave! (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | (...) Speaking of Doom3, since we were, indeed, speaking of it-- One video game that gave me nightmares, and it wasn't the gory video or the shooting--it was the sounds... it's a very disturbing video game, even when played in 'god' mode... Dave K (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) That's not funny. :-) JOHN (20 years ago, 6-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Ya wanna talk about legislating morality? —David Koudys
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| | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek wrote: <snip> (...) YOu guys don't have 'socialized health care' but the last time I checked, there are seatbelt laws in the US. And not once during my (almost) 38 years has the gov't told mw what I can (...) (20 years ago, 5-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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