Subject:
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whiteness (was Re: WTB Train Parts
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 1 Aug 1999 03:57:33 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpieniazek@novera.comSTOPSPAM
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Viewed:
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508 times
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Fascinating. To reiterate, I have always understood "mighty white" and
"mighty christian" to be equivalent insults (to non whites and non
christians, respectively). There isn't a dictionary per se to go look
these up in. we build our understanding up from context, unfortunately.
Mike's point of view is that "mighty white" is an insult to **whites**
rather than non whites!!! That's an amazing distinction and
diametrically opposed. His basis for that is historically valid, the
whites and other non-"native americans" did have an annoying tendency to
"give" the Indians things that were theirs already or that could not be
given to anyone or anything under the Indian belief system (if you don't
have a concept of property, it's rather hard to either give away or be
given a thing). (1) (2)
One other minor point, when I said "you can have the white windows" what
was meant was the intent not to contest those, not that a window that
belongs to a seller was somehow mine to give before it has been bought.
So I was conceding them to Mike, not giving them.
I'm not sure who doesn't know the true definition here, I'm pretty well
read but as I said, a lot of my knowledge of words and phrases is built
up from context so I could be wrong. Doesn't happen often, though.
1 - and there is a related, and rather fascinating slur: "indian giver"
implying that an indian would give something and then snatch it back. In
all probability the person who first said it had just encountered an
indian who was completely baffled by the idea of ownership... and hence
handed something over to use, then took it back.
2 - if you read Chief Seattle's words in the context of not having a
belief system that encompasses private property, they read rather
differently.
Mike Poindexter wrote:
>
> Larry,
>
> I think this may be a misunderstanding based on differences in meanings of
> phrases. Either one of us doesn't know the true definition or the definition
> has changed in different locales.
>
> When one is generosity is described as "being mighty white," it does not mean
> that non whites are less generous. It means that they are giving something to
> somebody that is not theirs to begin with. When you said I could have all the
> xyz pieces (I forgot what they were), they were not yours to give in the first
> place. To say that I can have them is to give me something that isn't yours.
> That is what it is to be "white." This probably comes from the history of the
> proliferation of the "white man" into other Native American territories
> and "giving" the Indians reservations of land that was theirs to begin with.
>
> I just asked my wife what it meant (she is from Tennessee- I am from
> California). Her interpretation is that it is a racial statement. I think
> that the true and original meaning would be mine. However, over time, it has
> come to be a racial insult. That would most likely appear in the South, as
> there is more racial tension there.
>
> Until today, I had never heard of any other meaning. I suppose that if we
> can't all agree on how to call a macaroni brick, how are we all going to agree
> on the meaning of "mighty white."
>
> I hope that clears everything up, Lar. I wasn't really even planning on
> reading your post, but I was curious (good thing). From my wife's definition,
> you would probably have a justifiable reason to take offense. From my
> definition, I was baffled by your response. Just a misunderstanding, I
> suppose.
>
> Mike
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > Insulting is an art form. One needs to choose the proper sized brush.
> > This is an example of unintended splatter, I think.
> >
> >
> >
> > In market.buy-sell-trade Mike Poindexter wrote:
> > > Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote:
> > > > Mike Poindexter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well, that is mighty white of you.
> > > >
> > > > I find that statement racist and highly offensive. Just thought you
> > > > might want to know. Certainly you're not constrained from using it, but
> > > > it is important to realise that other people share my view as well, so
> > > > you may want to consider that. No one has the right not to be offended,
> > > > of course, but were I someone that wanted something as badly as you say
> > > > you do, I'd be careful of who I offended.
> > >
> > >
> > > As for the statement "mighty white of you," it would be offensive to anyone • it
> > > is directed at, as it usually points out poor behavior. I have never seen
> > > anybody actually take it as a racist slur.
> >
> > If you'd said "that is mighty generous of you", it would be offensive in
> > an acceptable way, in context... that is, you'd be insulting me and me
> > alone, and that would be fine, after all, we're sparring.
> >
> > But when you say "that is mighty white of you" it is racist and
> > insulting to more than just me, because there is an implication there
> > that to be nonwhite is to not be generous, or to not be <whatever
> > characteristic you're (using sarcasm) accusing me of not having>.
> >
> > Another example:
> >
> > Were I tofeel like insulting all non christians, not just the person
> > (christian or not) that I need to insult, in similar circumstances,
> > where someone was not being forgiving or charitable, I would say "that
> > is mighty christian of you" for the same effect. But I know I would be
> > insulting non christians when I do so.
> >
> > Did you mean to insult all non whites, or did you truly not know what it
> > implies when you said it? This is really a curiousity question, not a
> > slam, and I am also curious as to whether others see this distinction.
> > To me it is very clear that to say "mighty white of you" is to insult
> > non whites.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
> > - - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
> > fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ Member ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to
> > lugnet.
> >
> > NOTE: I have left CTP, effective 18 June 99, and my CTP email
> > will not work after then. Please switch to my Novera ID.
--
Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
- - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ Member ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to
lugnet.
NOTE: I have left CTP, effective 18 June 99, and my CTP email
will not work after then. Please switch to my Novera ID.
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: whiteness (was Re: WTB Train Parts
|
| Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37A3C5AD.CDFF9A...ger.net... (...) I've always been under the impression that to be an indian giver is to act as the US did in giving the indians some land and then coming along and taking it (...) (25 years ago, 1-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: whiteness (was Re: WTB Train Parts
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| (...) The Lewis and Clark expedition notes talk about this, yes. Not necessarily randomly snatching something back, but, say, giving back a gun and taking back a horse when the gun was no longer needed, or deemed to be of little value compared to (...) (25 years ago, 1-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: WTB Train Parts
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| Larry, I think this may be a misunderstanding based on differences in meanings of phrases. Either one of us doesn't know the true definition or the definition has changed in different locales. When one is generosity is described as "being mighty (...) (25 years ago, 1-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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