 | | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Unoriginal parents? Tim (17 years ago, 16-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Wait a minute--I just realized that in this little discussion we have a Leonard, two Daves, and three Tims, one of whom qualifies as both a Tim and a David. What's going on here?!? Dave! (17 years ago, 16-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) SNIP (...) Hey, we don't want any mention of THAT place here! ;-) Tim (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) What's the standard, then? Does censorship cover anything that doesn't include everything? That would define "censorship" so thinly that it would have no meaning at all. But if we insetad define "censorship" to be an action of government, then (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) So, you're arguing that censorship can only be effected by a government, or illegally? By illegally, I'm suggesting that a private citizen/organization violates an agreement such as public free speech or their own TOS. Essentially, I think (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Just because something is a legal restriction of free speech doesn't make it not censorship. Free speech is not a complimentary set of censorship and the two can in fact overlap, likewise the absence of one does not guarantee the presence of (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Bible as a literal source?
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(...) Then perhaps we are more closely in agreement than I had realized. (...) Well now you are assuming that I literally believe the Genesis account of creation, which would be a stretch. Given that Western cultures still believed that the Earth (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Nope. The child and parents can still read the book at the local library or at the bookstore or even online. The private school is choosing not to carry a particular book on private property, which isn't censorship. Suppose I write a book that (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) I definitely disagree. If a private school wants to exclude any and all books from its premisis talking about Darwin's evolutionary theory, that's censorship! Everyone involved might be totally fine with it, and they might have made you aware (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) In case anyone is interested, I assume you mean this thread: (URL) Of course, BL posts are purged every 6 months so don't bother clicking on any of those links. (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Defining censorship
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(...) Agree! I set up the example to intentionally sound like the type of government that we would be more anxious to call "censoring". Arguably, I could've done without the lengthy applications and fingerprinting and such, and I would *still* call (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Hey, that's pretty good. In essence, omission is not censorship; restriction is. That works at least in the public arena, but it still doesn't apply IMO to a private forum. Still, it's a good rule of thumb. Dave! (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) I think that you misread me. I was referring to such an outlet that does allege that responsibility. I'm not referring to news outlets in general, which may or may not allege responsibility. Those seem to be two very different cases. (...) (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) On the contrary, people have said it is bad. Describing something as "Orwellian" is making a judgment call about it- "Orwellian" is not good. And Todd's coining of the term was because he felt this particular solution had never been developed (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) From what (and how) I've read no-one has claimed that murfling is eroding anyone's rights. They have claimed that the term is a euphemistic way of saying censored and that the use of euphemism is bad (at least from my reading). From your (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Censorship implies a bit more active restriction, I think. Censorship of the news would be when a party involved in delivering the news attempts to delivery a particular piece of news but is denied by their editor, manager, network, the FCC, (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Actually it doesn't have any such responsibility. It may be prudent to broadcast unaltered information (although it usually isn't, political slant is a good way to differentiate yourself from your competitors) but I'm willing to bet that if (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Todd coined it. Altho it has since become a "bad" word, he intended it to sound a little silly. The rest of the admins loved it, expecting that the community would accept it as a compromise between no cursing and free speech. It still amazes (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Defining censorship
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: -snip- (...) I like your example. It provides a descent example of how restricting access, but not denying access, can be censorship. (...) What bothers me about your example is the accumulation of (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Nope. It comes back to the TOS. I can dig up the link if you'd like, but a year or so ago there was a big discussion regarding someone's ouster from Bricklink for violating the TOS of that site. Great was the outcry on his behalf, though I (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) For these purposes I think that censorship refers to an action taken contrary to the wishes of the person supplying the content. A discussion of news outlets necessarily expands the debate beyond LUGNET and similar websites, such as the (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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--snip-- (...) I think this hits the nail firmly on the head. Censorship is most definitely not always a bad thing. Child pornography is, and should be, censored in almost every country in the world. Ones anti-virus email filter censors ones email (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) It depends largely on their reasons for doing it. If it is to purposefully bias the news (eg. render something not-true through omission) then it is censorship. But as I said it's not the best analogy. Tim (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Disagree, especially in the event that the enforcement is on subjective issues. For example, Lugnet's TOS specifies that you shouldn't post that which is "profane" or "vulgar". Let's say the administration deems the word "evolution" as (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Every news show leaves out bits of news. Is all news censored? Every library excludes some books. Is that censorship? Tim (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: What Censorship Isn't
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(...) Does that apply to pay-to-view television channels too? If they purposefully leave out bits of news is it not censorship? I agree it's not the best analogy but the private=noncensored argument is a dangerous one. (...) Why not? Is it not (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Bible as a literal source?
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(...) You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing that my interpretation is the correct interpretation, merely that I can construct an interpretation of Genesis that disagrees with the facts as we know (insofar as we know anything) them. (...) If (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Well, maybe if you're taking a totally uncritical look at it. As far as current scientific understanding goes, the process didn't unfold by having the Earth and seas and vegetation precede the formation of the Sun and Moon. Sure, we can blame (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Where I come from, critical thinking requires actual thinking, not dogmatic obedience. Sadly, dogmatic obedience is not dying in this country. Citing mythos as fact and expecting to be taken seriously is not critical thinking. (...) To the (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | What Censorship Isn't
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When a privately-owned website enforces the TOS to which posters have explicitly agreed, that's not censorship. If it results in posts being deleted, hidden, altered, or flagged in some way, it still isn't censorship. Alternatively, if it is (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Bible as a literal source? was Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) I don't see any timeline in that quotation that precludes "the beginning" from spanning a very, very long time. (...) It doesn't actually say there was no light anywhere, it only says that the earth was without form and in darkness. The (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Defining censorship
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(...) As I mentioned elsewhere, I personally would consider things other than strict denials as censorship, although I agree that murfling isn't strong enough to be what I would consider to be censorship. For example, let's pretend that the (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Where I come from, it is a sign of critical thinking to be able to evaluate an idea on its own merits, regardless of the source. But I know that critical thinking is a dying art. Do cultural differences add nuance to the written/spoken word (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Bible as a literal source? was Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Not convenience, I'd already (URL) I would>: "PS. And in the absence of any sort of addition to the argument from you I will let you have your last word and bow out. While trading insults with you is amusing it’s polite to leave it off Lugnet. (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) That section of his post does reveal a lot about his (il)logic processes, though. Jeff (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Convenient how you "missed these other points out." (...) You don't have to be Christian to believe the Old Testament. And you don't have to believe that it is a literal account of history to recognize that the books of the Bible contain (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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--snip-- (...) I was going to say nothing in response to your response and I will leave out the rest of it but... I just can't believe that you seriously expect me to take the writings in Genesis as part of a logical argument. I really can't. I'm (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Sounds like different shades of the same color to me. (...) Ah, yes. A post that I made within hours of discovering JLUG is proof positive that I hold a lingering grudge these many months later. The logic is undeniable. (...) I didn't realize (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) I'll jump in here and (not having read the whole thread) I'm sure I'll state something that's blatantly obvious and has (probably) been stated-- Censorship is some form of management (parent/school board/society) *denying* access to some (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Should AFOL websites keep to themselves?
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(...) Let me spell out the difference: on one you single out a post for the warning, on the other it covers the whole site. Understand now? (...) I believe there's ample proof that you do hold something against JLUG. You even went so far as to (...) (17 years ago, 13-Apr-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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