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I think the bigger question is what is YOURS? I believe most people in here can see the difference between the WTC attack and a nation trying to end a protracted war (with an enemy that had proved time and time again that it would suicide, use (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More on Palestine
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(...) Okay... (...) Tell me, is this hogwash, straight from the Yitzhak Rabin Center for Israel Studies?: (URL)(I note you haven't answered whether you think it has a right to exist (...) Didn't I addressed that off-line with you? If not, obviously (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More on Palestine
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(...) So what's your definition of terrorism? ROSCO (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sticks and stones... Dan (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snipped> Sticks and stones...Everybody's entitled to an opinion. You see it your way, I see it mine, and I'm not concerned about your appraisal of my credibility. Dan (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More on Palestine
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(...) Really? What? If you mean the atomic explosions, you've got an awfully strange idea of the definition of terrorism. -- Tom Stangl ***(URL) Visual FAQ home ***(URL) Bay Area DSMs (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) You're comparing vastly different countries, with different mindsets. Compare within a country, especially within the US, and you'll see that states that allow easy lawful access to guns tend to have lower violent crime rates. Compare apples (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) breaking down the proposition now: (...) "We should be aware of the advantage that modern liberal democracy derived from the spoils of empire..." (...) "followed by the past sixty years of broad based consumption..." (...) "that now means (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More on Palestine
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(...) This is more than a difference of opinion, so brushing it under the rug by calling it that won't work. (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't think it's shameful for people to have differing opinions, so I guess we differ on that as well 8?) (...) No, no real surprise 8?) Our opinions diverge again. So be it. And I'd add that as far as the perpetrators of Sep 11 go, they (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Larry, I might have missed it but given that Israel has a right to exist, what boundaries do you think it should have? The original partition boundaries, the current boundaries, the current boundaries with some concession to Palestinian (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More on Palestine
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(...) I'll discuss that if you like, but not whether using nukes in WW II was terrorism. It wasn't. (I again say shame on you for even suggesting it was). I just ran across this: (URL) it has some food for thought. I skimmed it quickly so I'm just (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: More on Palestine
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(...) So I ask again, why not use the same weapons now? Are we not currently at war with a fanatical, evil emp^H^H^H group (or groups), and need to win? Is it not appropriate to use those weapons to win this war? Why / why not? ROSCO (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek misfires. The other reply is the one I meant, it's more fully formed. Frothier for your enjoyment, even... So don't reply to this one. Not sure why the first post took, it wasn't supposed to. (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Really ROSCO, I should know better. You're just trying to spin me up as a diversionary tactic because, well, I don't know why you are doing it, except perhaps to divert attention from the thread topic? This exact debate has been held here (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Really ROSCO, I should know better. You're just trying to spin me up as a diversionary tactic because, well, I don't know why you are doing it, except perhaps to divert attention from the thread topic? This exact debate has been held here (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The allies were all fighting together. I dare say ANZAC didn't consult FDR on all movements involving US troops either. (...) The same old "it was war" excuse. Winning the war wasn't terrorism, dropping the bombs was. One was just a (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, and if you really truly are delusional enought to think all countries are equally bad, this REALLY ought to get you foaming. (URL) a defense of Berlusconi (who happened to be 100% correct when he said "We should be conscious of the (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) WE? That, I suspect, was the US's doing, and the US's alone, I don't think FDR consulted ANZAC. So you're off the hook. But please explain how it was terrorism, exactly, to win a war against an evil empire with less loss of life than a (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are going to have to do a little better than that at debunking... Is this quote "hogwash"? "Of course, "the right of Israel to exist" has never been accepted by its enemies, especially Yasser Arafat. " (I note you haven't answered whether (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Because, warts and all, some countries are better, some are worse. Or do you really think that all countries are the same across the board, all are equally culpable? No matter HOW many examples of US malfeasance you post you are never ever (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) after we committed against them 2 of the worst single acts of terrorism the world has known. ROSCO (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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For a moment, I couldn't tell whether I was reading something from the National Review or the World Zionist Org's website. What a bunch of hogwash. At least it was worth a good laugh. Dan (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why not? (...) Like I said, everybody has dirt under the nails. What about our CIA? What about Iran-Contra? What about us becoming pals with the Somolian warlords? What about us being pals with the Saudis, who are Wahabis just like the Taliban (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Statistics (...) *lawful* (...) Hmmm...I hate to point this out: UK murder rate by handgun is lower than US one...hmmm, seems that the _opposite_ effect is true. Or, look at Canada/US . Same sort of effects. Although, I think that it has a (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Simple - they go to areas where weapons are hard to *lawfully* get. Statistics prove this out - the easier it is to *lawfully* get a gun, hence the more *lawful* citizens have them, the lower the "bad" crimes in the area. (...) No, they often (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) Something that tends to get forgotten I think is that just because all _government_ regulation is removed that there will be no regulation. I'm sure many, if not most, of the licenses which exist today would exist in a Libertopia. The (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) First, it proves the driver knows how to drive; second, it issues HIM the responsability for his actions behind the wheel, and noone else. It acts more to third parties' safety/insurance than the driver himself. (...) Synonym, PLEASE! :-) And (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom Stangl writes: (snipped) (...) Most criminals aren't psychic, either. So how can they tell if someone is armed or not? They just try their luck. If the victim is not armed, fine; if it is, too bad, one person will (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) Huh... does that mean only a few can decide my rights, if I belong to the mob? I disagree with you all the way. If more people want it, it is to be done. (...) (sorry, did not understand... please provide synonym. TIA) (...) Ah, yes. See (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) So if it is ultimately the driver's responsibility, what good then is the license or the act of issuing it? (...) There is no difference in kind among these. Both are abrogations of responsibility. I believe you are caught in a contradiction, (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) No. Might, or mob rule, does not make right. Rights must be paramount to the desires of the mob. I reject democracy when it is unfettered. The majority voting to deny even one single person rights, while democratic, is unjust. I prefer a (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) You have correctly interpreted my "No", Lar. "No, it does not", that was what I should have written. Language issues... :-) But you missed my point. The State grants the license, but the use the driver makes of it is his responsability. His (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Most criminals aren't stupid. Given a choice against going up against an armed or unarmed victim, most will logically choose the unarmed victim. I sure would if I were a criminal! -- | Tom Stangl, iPlanet Web Server Technical Support | Sun (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) (snipped) (...) If so many favor it, it can be right. The choice of the majority, right or wrong, is the one to follow. The basic principle of Democracy. (...) I dunno, I'll take your word for it. ;-) Pedro (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) (snipped) (...) ! (...) Yeah, right... (...) That is why mankind invented LANGUAGE... to express. A tool for expression is a pencil, a guitar, a toy, the body expression... A gun is a tool to *end* the need for speech. You shoot, you win, you (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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(...) Maybe some other time, this is a bit of a sidetrack. (...) Great, let's work to remove regulation where we both agree... (...) and when that deregulation happens, and people get used to the idea that regulations DON'T keep them safer than the (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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Hello Chris, (...) But wouldn't things be better when other means of expression are easier to get than arms? Or, still better than nothing, vice versa, when arms are harder to get? Of course, I don't want to advocate to NOT also tackle the root (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: PA censoring journalists again, but repudiating bin Laden...
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Hello Scott, (...) Because there are many Jews in the US, and because they have over-average positions with influence? Can it be as simple as that? Greetings Horst (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Hold your fire?
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Hello Larry, (...) 2, even though I am NOT sure whether it actually will work. But maybe we are lucky and the current path of 3 turns out to be 4 with less military effort ;-) Greetings Horst (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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