 | | Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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<original message snipped> Generally I don't feel right blowing my own trumpet, guys, but I feel that the reputation (and possibly the future!) of this NG is at stake here. If you have the time, feel free to take a few minutes to read a post I made (...) (24 years ago, 21-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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Kevin and Frank are right, this discussion didn't belong in that thread. My bad. It kind of crept up on me. (...) Would you prefer "the forceful (when necessary) realocation of resources?" Theft is much shorter. It is more convenient to call it (...) (24 years ago, 21-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) [...] (...) whose (...) education (...) heads (...) don't (...) Apologies if I'm plowing old ground here, I spent a while looking for the original source of this discussion but couldn't find it (possibly due to the fact that I'm using an NNTP (...) (24 years ago, 21-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) If one were subject to theft, one normally calls the police or involves the civil courts. If one objects to taxation, one protests against it. (...) I think calling it "theft" detracts from you argument. However, it is not all that big a deal (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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<topped> (...) <tailed> I think you have a good point Paul. However, I think there is also value in replying point by point as one can quickly see where the main arguments lie. I enjoy ready through long, well reasoned, text - but without printing (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Paul Baulch writes: Yes, this *is* old ground. It's a fundamental difference in premise about what the proper form of society is, actually. (...) This is the root of the question indeed. The conventional answer is that (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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Larry handled the first step well, but I do have a couple questions. (...) Hi Paul, In reverse order: Why refer to the Old Testament? And substituting words, you ask "Why does organization-x need permission to steal from you?" In any instance of (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation
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(...) Can it not be argued that by participating in the monetary system deployed by a government (in accordance, in the US, with the Constitution) a tax is simply a "service charge" for using goverment property (money)? That is, if you don't want to (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation
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(...) Yes it can be so argued... (and yes, it's a bit plowed but worth reexamination) A few points to consider: - While the constitution speaks of coinage, it does not reserve coinage as a (federal OR state) government monopoly. - Coinage (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation
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(...) That would be a reasonable argument if: 1. The IRS didn't try and get it's fingers into deals done without the use of the coin of the realm (they have in fact gone after barter exchanges, just try that on a big scale and find out what happens (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation
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(...) Disagree. If conditions one and two are in place, three needn't be. I don't care one whit what organization-x does with their internal policy. In a system of competing currencies, Bob's Green Bank could produce pretty USbob$10 bills with (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) Do they not ask you each and every time there is an election in the US? Sure, I expect you were out-voted - but that is democracy for you! Did Gore and Bush not present pre-election spending plans to your nation? Will your elected (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) It is not hypothetical, Britain did this in 1788. They stopped paying their tax to the UK a while back though... we keep a tab. :-) Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation
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(...) I'm not sure (I wasn't real sure about making that stipulation), but there clearly are things which private organizations can be allowed to do that governments can't (such as discrimination). It probably does amount to a moot point since a (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) given (...) Your stace here is (if I understand you correctly) that since a bunch of people think taking my money is OK, that I don't have a right to call it theft. I don't think that makes any sense. No number of opinions in favor, make (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation
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(...) Wow. I didn't know you were into the music of Jars of Clay, Lar... or were you just waxing poetic? -John (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not, but the alliteration was too much to resist. (1) Hence in the example I'm trading the CD AWAY for something I value more. ++Lar 1 - although I do like Sixpence none the Richer... (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) I think, we are back to where we started on this one. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) people (...) So we've gone around in a circle and I still haven't heard any explanation as to why it is OK for you to take the resources of your fellow. It's not even that I _just_ disagree. I don't have anything reasonable with which to (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote in message ... (...) And a fine answer it is too. It follows that consenting to be governed by a government which demands tax is giving permission to be taxed by that government - ergo, taxation is not theft. (...) governed? (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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Christopher Weeks wrote in message ... (...) Aren't they a good example of law coming from a higher power than government? (...) given (...) That is an entirely inappropriate substitution - I'm not asking why the government needs permission to (...) (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) Yes, I agree, taxation of those who consent to be taxed is not theft. Where we differ is on how one gives consent and how one goes about withholding it. Stick with my example here... (...) So in a country of millions of people, as long as one (...) (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) Would it be your claim that it is impossible for the government to steal from a citizen? (...) I have not. (...) Nowhere to go. (...) Pressured with the threat of death is not just a little pressure. So yes. I am saying that anytime someone (...) (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) I do not "take" anything from my fellow man in the manner you mean. I have no problem paying tax within the UK/EU system... as long as it is managed democratically. I vote for governments who tax and spend in the way I find acceptable... I am (...) (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) I'm not sure what manner yout think I mean. I don't think you are the guy holding the gun, if that's what you mean. That would be too messy. Instead, you pay someone else to hold the gun on your fellows while their resources are collected. (...) (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) For some more thoughts on what "consent of the governed" means, see this reference I just stumbled across while reading up on something Chris W. pointed me at... (URL) ties in well with David Friedman's writings on how to have non statist law (...) (24 years ago, 25-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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<zapped> (...) <zapped> But what about police, "defence", courts, and some sort of governmental foreign policy office? Scott A (24 years ago, 3-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) Oh, all of those things should be privatized...oh wait, that's not the conversation we're having... Well, defense and foreign policy pretty clearly fall under "The assurance that our global neighbors are behaving" above and police and courts I (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: It IS about Taxation ;-) (Was Re: (Sub|Ob)jectivity and related case studies on .debate (...or is it just about taxation :-)
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(...) My mistake. I misunderstood your position. Out of interest, how could the police be funded outside the TAX system? Would one have to have insurance to ensure , say, ones own murderer is tracked down? Would one also have to have insurance to (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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