 | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Dave Schuler
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| | | (...) I'll need to find the passage again. It's been a while. But anyway, why is a loving and merciful God immolating anybody in the first place? Heck, by that metric, I'm more loving and merciful than God. (...) Sorry, but that's as much a (...) (18 years ago, 17-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | (...) Well, the only human immolating that went on that among the Israelites that I know of is the call for the sacrifice of Isaac (which was recanted anyway). Still, I would explain such interpretations of God's will as just that-- contextual to (...) (18 years ago, 17-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | Hi, John. (...) I've seen you draw this distinction in other posts here, and meant to ask you how exactly you derive this idea that the Old Testament is "contextual to the time" while the New Testament (presumably in your mind) is not merely so. (...) (18 years ago, 17-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | (...) Of course I believe the NT is as well. For example, Paul writes letters to specific communities with specific issues. Even the Gospels have specific audiences. Yeah, lots of the issues addressed are of the universal type, but some aren't. One (...) (18 years ago, 18-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | Thanks for indulging me, John. (...) OK, I guess that answers most of the questions from my post. So, if I understand you correctly, when it comes right down to it, the reason you believe wholheartedly that Jesus spoke eternal religious truths about (...) (18 years ago, 18-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | (...) Well, let's say that it "rings true" to me; I find the wisdom valid for my life. Why? I don't know the reason. But it does. Why do you believe what you believe? Upon what rational basis do you (presumably) deny the existence of God? How do you (...) (18 years ago, 18-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | | (...) To say that it "rings true to you" almost makes it sound like you are evaluating it based on evidence and logic, rationally determining it to be the best explanatory theory. But this is quite different than saying that you are absolutely sure (...) (18 years ago, 19-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Must they be mutually exclusive? (...) How? Via torture? ;-) (...) I'm not sure I even understand what the term "Son of God" means. I do know that it isn't merely a synonym of "Son of Man", "Lamb of God", "Messiah", etc. As for His revelation (...) (18 years ago, 22-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | | | (...) No, they need not be mutually exclusive, but I don't see that that is more than a trivial point to make. I suppose someone could, for instance, be rationally convinced that nautral selection accounts for the diversity of life on Earth because (...) (18 years ago, 22-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Brendan Powell Smith wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) Great Googly Moogly this debate is great! Anyway, I just wanted to pop up at this one point--it's best described, for me anyway, as the 'Decker Arguement' See, here's (...) (18 years ago, 22-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | | | | | Hi, Dave. (...) Heh, glad somebody is enjoying it. (...) You make a good point, Dave, and reading over what I wrote I can see why you've brought this up. In the Kirk case, Kirk has listed several independent arguments for why he should be be in (...) (18 years ago, 22-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Allister McLaren
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| | | | | | | | (...) I'm surprised you entered this one then. Religious debates are rarely worth participating in. Doubly so if bold John's involved. (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Richard Parsons
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| | | | | | | | (...) Agreed. But I for one appreciate it. And sometimes there is value in the struggle, even if it seems insurmountable unlikely to succeed. Someone needs to remind us all of this from time to time, and the Rev does it better than anyone I know. (...) (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Really? At what point during a rational evaluation process do you decide something? How can two scientists who evaluate the same evidence draw different conclusions? Do you know for sure from where "ideas" that "pop into your head" come? (...) (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Timothy Gould
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| | | | | | | Hi John, I've taken the liberty of only responding to those points which relate to what I believe to be your misunderstanding of science. Here is an (URL) article> on the scientific method for further reading. (...) This occurs in much the same way (...) (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) In the fullness of time (ie the end of our lives) we'll either all know or it won't matter anyway;-) This sounds like the time to mention Pascal's wager! (...) I think you missed my meaning. I meant scientists who are Christian, not "Christian (...) (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Timothy Gould
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| | | | | | | | (...) I'd rather not know than get my answers from a pulp paperback from 2000 years ago ;) (...) I think you'll find you're quite mistaken there. I know plenty of scientists who are Christian and I've never noticed their views to be taken better or (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Timothy Gould wrote: <snip> (...) That may be. I seem to remember reading something about the topic; perhaps I can do some digging around. (...) Yeah, I meant to address this elsewhere and forgot: I'm not talking about (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Tim, (URL) this> touches on what I was talking about. JOHN (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, that's pretty unfair. That's like saying we NEED an answer, and if we can't come up with one, creationism is correct. If you go back to 500 BC and asked people why lightning happened, I'm sure they could come up with answers. But just (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Timothy Gould
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| | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: --snip-- (...) --snip-- (...) I believe that many predictions of the Big Bang theory have been verified which is why I say there is an overwhelming body of evidence for it. There is admittedly far more (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, I'm trying to be strictly accurate there. It's not that the evidence proves the conclusion, it's that the evidence doesn't contradict the conclusion. If we had (for example) two conflicting ideas about the origin of the universe (the Big (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Timothy Gould
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I have avoided using the word "proved" for that very good reason. (...) However in the absence of the alternate theory then the evidence supports the one theory. Which is why the Big Bang Theory is now commonly named as such whereas it used to (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Now that's unfair:-) I am NOT arguing for creationism. Science is about explaining things. All I'm saying is that what happened pre Big Bang is inexplicable. (...) Agreed. (...) Thank you. That is entirely my point. Therefore any explanation (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I'm not sure that it will be forever outside the scope of science. The more we learn, the more we discover. Take Brendan's sealed-closet example. And let's suppose we can walk around the closet. Well, we know whatever's in the closet has to (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Thomas Stangl
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| | | | | | | | (...) Actually, it didn't really happen in a point in time, AFAIAC. Time began at that point. In fact, there's a good chance that "time" didn't "begin" (or stabilize) for "eons" (read in femto- or pico- seconds), just as our physics framework (as we (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | (...) Well, I think the issue is that the Bible gets treated differently than most other written works. I find that your (John's) particular take on Christianity is something closer to "inspired from the Bible" rather than "based on the Bible". The (...) (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | | | | In the interest of brevity, nonredundancy, and my own sanity, I am going to skip responding to some of John's comments that have been taken up by Tim and DaveE. I also want to take a moment to note that I began this discussion by asking John to (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) I hear that! I'm going to do some snipping to clean up a bit around the thread. (...) <snip> (...) Not at all. I'm just seeing common ground. (...) But you will probably always be irrational though you strive to be rational. You are a closet (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | | | | | Alright, where were we... let's see... (...) Ah, OK. It's silly how things can be taken the wrong way in a written debate that would be cleared up in an instant if we were speaking in person. But then again, I'm not much for debating in person. I (...) (18 years ago, 31-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yes, the medium is cumbersome, but at least it allows for a dialog with people with whom you might not normally engage. For me it is very time consuming, and many times I've left an interesting discussion because suddenly work pops up and I (...) (18 years ago, 13-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Brendan Powell Smith
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| | | | | | | | (...) You have now many times asserted that there can be no rational explanations for the origin of the universe, but mere repeated assertion has done nothing to convince me (or others who have chimed in) you're right about this. Even if we suppose (...) (18 years ago, 14-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (This has been sitting in my draft folder for weeks. Though I doubt you'd care to respond at this point, I thought I'd finish it up and post it anyway.) (...) Brendan, for a rational person such as yourself, you only accept explanations that can (...) (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Bob Parker
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| | | | | | | | (...) (snipped several detailed rational items) Say, John, are you a member of (URL) Jlug> already by any chance? If not, then you should think about joining our lively little group if you wish to (a Lego Ambassador had to remind me to throw out an (...) (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Not a chance, no. (...) I'm glad Jlug exists, but it's not my cup of tea. Thanks for the offer, though:-) JOHN (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Chris Phillips
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| | | | | | | | (...) If only I had found a way to be so diplomatic... :) (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | (...) The better part of valor is discretion:-) JOHN (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Chris Phillips
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Well then I admire and applaud your well-honed sense of discretion, sir! (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I never said I had any; I was merely merrily quoting Shakespeare! JOHN (18 years ago, 29-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Chris Phillips
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Your modesty is to be admired as well. You have clearly demonstrated keen discretion this evening, IMHO. (18 years ago, 30-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, modesty is one of my best qualities! (though I'm not worth to carry the sandals of any one of the Daves!) BTW, welcome back! Are any of the NELUGers planning on attending the ILTCO Detroit show in July? JOHN (18 years ago, 30-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Chris Phillips
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Thanks for the warm welcome! (...) I don't know about NELUG attendance at the ILTCO show yet. I haven't been to a club meeting recently, so I don't know what people are planning. Sounds like a worthwhile trip, though, and I'll talk it up with (...) (18 years ago, 30-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Ba-Ding! Good one:-) JOHN (18 years ago, 30-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | | (...) Would be so unfortunate... :( Selçuk (18 years ago, 30-Nov-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Thomas Stangl
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| | | | | | (...) Occam's Razor - the onus is on YOU to explain how an omniscient being just came into being, then created the universe. And if that being was created by another, who created *that* being (ad nauseum)?... Why must you insist on making things (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Here's how: The omniscient, omnipotent being always was, by definition. Irrational? You bet. (...) Are you suggesting that this stuff is in some way simple? (...) Though we've met a few times, you don't really know me that well because I'm (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —David Koudys
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| | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) jumping in here again with this brief blurb-- (URL) are apt to quote the late Stephen Jay Gould's 'NOMA' - 'non-overlapping magisteria'. Gould claimed that science and true (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) I like this part: First, most of the traditional arguments for God's existence, from Aquinas on, are easily demolished. Several of them, such as the First Cause argument, work by setting up an infinite regress which God is wheeled out to (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) I don't know that it's arrogant or naive, though it might be unjustifiably optimistic at the moment to call it "simple." Gould isn't saying that Hawking/Penrose will, like God, be magically able to terminate the regress; their intent is to (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) I wish I could help you out, Dave! But I don't know jack about phones. And I'd have to brush up on painting staircases; I hear it's rail difficult. Well, if they ever arrest the regress, it would appear that their work would be able to be used (...) (18 years ago, 26-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Thomas Stangl
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| | | | | | | I never said the explanation would be "simple". I simply state that adding a Creator is making it *more complex* than it needs to be. (...) (18 years ago, 25-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Timothy Gould
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| | | | | | --snip-- (...) --snip-- (...) Bad example ;) It is very easy to explain pi in numerous simple and rational ways. eg. pi=4(1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 etc.) pi=( 16((1/5) - 1/3(1/5)^3 + 1/5(1/5)^5 - 1/7(1/5)^5 + ...) - 4((1/239) - 1/3(1/239)^3 + (...) (18 years ago, 26-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) I'd venture to say that this is just about your favorite question, because you return to it repeatedly! The answers, of course, are many and various: atheists don't necessarily deny the existence of God; they just don't believe that he exists (...) (18 years ago, 20-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | (...) Well, for me it's the ultimate question. And I believe that the origin of the universe is the ONLY PLACE where science and religion collide and become indistinguishable from each other. (...) Science doesn't just accept a "we don't know." (...) (18 years ago, 22-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Timothy Gould
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| | | | | --snip-- (...) I don't know where you got this idea from. There are plenty of ways to test hypotheses about the origins of the universe. The Big Bang hypothesis is pretty much accepted by all scientists to the point that it could almost be (...) (18 years ago, 22-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) If, by "ignorant," you mean "lacking knowledge," then the answer is yes. Science definitely accepts "we don't know," but it doesn't posit that as a final explanation, either. The correct framing is "we don't know/we think it's like this/here's (...) (18 years ago, 23-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: The Brick Testament - More Teachings of Jesus —John Neal
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| | | | (...) But in that case, science will really never know. My belief in God can be viewed as a "best guess" scenario as well-- given the choice of believing that the universe spontaneously came into being, or a Creator causing it to happen (whose (...) (18 years ago, 24-Oct-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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