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This is awesome news... not only might this little war we're about to have finish up the UN as an active force, it might well do in NATO too. From the text of a speech by Senator John McCain (R., Ariz.) on February 8, 2003, at the Munich Conference (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) You mean they're less welcome at home than they are in Germany? ;-) Richie (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It could be argued that NATO and the UN are gaining respect in the international community for failing the follow Bush's line. Indeed, it is notable that a large proportion of the public internationally will only support a war which has UN (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:HA6Joo.M94@lugnet.com... (...) 8, (...) Parliament (...) on (...) asked (...) NATO (...) welcome. (...) This is how it worked when I was a little kid and wanted some icecream: Ask (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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(...) Honestly, it's hard to say. There's the rabid (and, frankly, fascist) campaign by the Bush administration to marginalize and demonize anyone voicing reservations about prosecuting this unjust war, so it's difficult to assess the actual (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) Oh please do! And while you're withdrawing your troops from non-US countries, please remove your diplomats, your meddling, and your arms sales from any country that is not yours. I (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would certainly support that plan. Can we rely on our allies in France (for example) likewise to cease the sale of arms to any country that doesn't belong to France? (...) Sadly, this is hardly a US-only phobia. Other nations likewise have (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Have a look at this: ftp://voot.pair.com/...cheese.jpg [Note: “Yurp” is how Steve Bell represents Bush’s pronunciation of “Europe”] (...) ... or a least that's the way Bush can read it. ;) At the weekend we expect 500,000 – 1,000,000 to voice (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think the U.S. public is becoming wary of Bush's motivation. They may not like Saddam Hussein, but the Al Queda connection is tenuous at the very best. (...) Those governments that support the US against the wishes of their citizens may find (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Have I done that? Does public opinion amount to evidence of a threat? ;) <snip> (...) A very good point! (...) That's a little sad. Scott A (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I saw a poll the other day (cited on CNN, but I can't remember the uber-source) that showed that about 45% of Americans believed that the Bush administration would intentionally falsify information to make its case, and something like 58% (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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(...) Usually the list of Who The US Won't Sell To is the same as the list that France Will Sell To. Pretty much where there is a demand, there will be a supply. As to meddling, David (not Dave!), at what point should the US have stopped "medlling" (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) 4 Words: France, Israel Suez & Nukes. ;) Scott A (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's the inconsistent foreign policy that I really want to see the end of. I was being a little 'over the top' to make the point, but it's like, "Hey Joe Schmoo, until you get your act together, don't bother coming out!" So yes, I was a little (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Fomenting a war between Turkay and Iraq and then demanding that everyone aid in the war that they opposed being started in the first place will not be a feather in Bush's cap. All he will do is drive a wedge between us and the rest of NATO, (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I believe *any* politician will do such, but some more than others (Dubya!). war? Seems to me an oxymoron. Justifiable, maybe - I suppose a war (...) Okay, I was being pendantic. But the resolution the UN passed made it look fairly legal (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I pretty much figured all this, but I thought you might want an opportunity to explain further. :-) (...) I think the UN has do a less slacker-like performance in regards to its sanctions against Iraq if it wants to have any moral authority, (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Alone. And out of principles, at least until '41. One point for him :-) (...) Part that, but he also had the misfortune to have a stroke just as he was about to convince the Senate to join the SoN. In any case, the partition of Europe in (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, love the planes across the border--thanks! (...) Getting a bombed out, poor, defeated country to make reparations possibly wans't the best of ideas, but wasn't it more than just France that was liking this idea? (...) I just wish that he (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Maybe one of our friends from across the pond can help out here, but there's apparently a satirical stage play now running in the UK that's almost as farcical as the real-world farce playing out under Bush. I think it even has direct and (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes: <snip> (...) Here's my inherent cotradictory nature--I love the B52! I had a model kit of one when I was a kid--it's a wonderful jet. Though, to be said, one of my fav. documentaries (barring the one (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Complicated answer: At first, France's stubborness in getting heavy reparations was crucial to have them made *at all*; the Brits would have settled for the dismantling of the German and Austro-hungarian Empires, the Russians had their own (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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(...) Greg Palast on Blair: (URL) poodle on a leash?! -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ya. I for one would LOVE to see some real investigative reporting into the theory that France is blocking things because they have lots and lots of business deals in the hopper that would go forward if sanctions are eventually lifted but which (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) East to say, but harder to justify. (...) None of that explains why Belgium and Germany share France's outlook. Nor does it explain why the French navy is currently on exercise with your own in the "Eastern Mediterranean". (...) I'm sure I've (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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(...) Quite interesting. He is plain wrong on some issues, but overall he raises some key points. The most pertinent is this: "Well, if there is a U.N. resolution backing the war in Iraq, and I don't doubt there will be, the average Briton is not (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The beginning of the end of NATO?
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(...) On a similar note, the American movie "Bowling for Columbine" screened in Oslo a couple of weeks ago, and received very good ratings. The reviewer were generally more happy about this movie than with "Two Towers"! While "Bowling..." is (...) (21 years ago, 16-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The rally in London was the biggest gathering in the UK since VE [Victory in Europe] day: estimates range from 750,000 to 2,000,000. 500,000 were expected. (URL) counter attacked before it even got underway: (URL) A (21 years ago, 16-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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It has most likely been mentioned here before, but I'm too lazy to read thru all messages in this thread. NATO was made to stop Soviet Communism to take over the whole planet. That was a good thing, very easy to unite to. Now that the Soviet empire (...) (21 years ago, 17-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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