 | | Idiots, Part Deux —David Koudys
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| | | Now right off the bat, my family loves animals--I'm anti-fur and a whole bunch of other things, and we always had a dog in the house when I was growing up--loved having a dog around, and we always treated our animals humanely. That said... (URL) (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) half measure. It is still true that only animals who have a steward that wants to push back will be remedied. So people can still throw flaming cats of highway bridges, as long as they're strays. (...) So you think that when a vet or a (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —David Koudys
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| | | | | | (...) And I'm pointing out that we live in society more and more intent on a "Sue or be sued" mentality. So I was around 11 years olf. We had a dog named Taffy. Taffy was a wonderful dog who came to a very unkind end when some construction material (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) The box is already open. This proposed law is just reminding us that it is open. But we don't want to close it. Lawsuits are the civilized way of settling disputes. (...) But what basis do you use to hold the cat thrower responsible for his (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Matthew Hamand
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| | | | | | (...) Small world. My family had a dog named Taffy when I was a child. Also, don't worry about becoming crotchety at 35. When I was 21 I was always telling my dorm mates to turn down their music. And I'm sure that if I had had a lawn I would have (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) Fundamentally, I see no problem whatsoever in animals having and being given property rights. As to what happens to the estate when Fido dies without issue? What happens when your kid who inherited your estate dies without issue? We have (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —David Koudys
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| | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: <snip> (...) Now if there was an addendum to all laws that says "You will get slapped hard if we find that your lawsuit is frivilous", then I'm completely in support of said measure. However, who deems (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) No addendum needed, and mostly the system is already there. Judges do have a lot of flexibility. Unfortunately, over the years they have been given less flexibility. Also, countersuits already handle some of the problems. Mostly what has to (...) (21 years ago, 10-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Richie Dulin
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| | | | (...) So if my wife wanted to end our marriage, I should be able to sue her for loss of my relationship 'property'? Richie (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) I would say yes. To some extent this is already covered by divorce law. I'm pretty sure I've also read about cases where someone sued their ex for basically this reason. I'm not sure one would win very often, but there certainly are cases (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Richie Dulin
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| | | | (...) Why would the value of the relationship change depending on who took it away? Do other pieces of property change their value depending on who takes them away? (...) I don't think that matches with what you've said earlier: you declared the (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) <snip> (...) I agree with Frank on this point. The contract isn't exactly a property (well, the paper and ink are, and the IP that goes into it may be, but the contract in the sense that Frank means is merely an agreement. The agreement itself (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | | (...) I would agree with this refinement. It also better supports the idea that the wife terminating the relationship is different than a murderer terminating the relationship. (...) Right, it's not so much that the value of the relationship (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Richie Dulin
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| | | | (...) No. There may be an agreement, but Frank said clearly in (URL) that "The relationships that make a family a family are property". The example of marriage may also have a contractual element which may also have value, but according to Frank's (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) Chris wasn't saying the relationship is not propery. He was saying the contract is not a property, it is documentation of the agreement of what property is involved in the relationship and how to handle disolving the contract. Chris also added (...) (21 years ago, 11-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: <snip> (...) That's right - he didn't mention the relationship at all - he made claims about contracts and agreements. (...) What 'property is involved involved in the relationship' is not my concern. (...) (21 years ago, 12-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) And I wasn't disagreeing with that. (I might actually, in the end, but I haven't found fault with his assertion yet.) I was merely speaking to the contract's nature, as Frank pointed out. (...) Except in another note, I asked about the ability (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Frank Filz
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| | | | | (...) Yes, though a contract may be in place. I would tend to think that there is an implicit contract entered when the child is conceived. (...) Ok, point conceded. I've lost my train of thought on this bit though. Unfortunately this debate which I (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | (...) Apologies Frank, I was actually enjoying reading this particular thread, though it be waaay over my head. I was looking for Locke, Kant, and Hobbes to chime into the thread, but alas... You are probably right about the other--the lines have (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Simon Bennett
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| | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: I've lost my train of thought on this bit though. (...) Absolutely - I've been trying to find some spare time to get in on this one for exactly the same reason. I've tried to raise 'is land property' at (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) Buried in that other people aren't contributing their thoughts because they're too wrapped up in the more emotionally satisfying debates about unsolvable situations in the Middle East? Or buried in that _you_ are too busy in the other thread? (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Is it possible to move to an uninhabited planet and start all over? This planet has tangled property rights, but what about some other one? (...) Is it right to exist, or right to exist and be supported, or just right to try to exist and to be (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Not a right to support (at least in any but the vaguest of senses) just a right to a place. In what I understand of libertopia, it would be theoretically possible for one person to buy up all the land and not allow anyone else to be there. (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) The issue quickly becomes conflict of rights. One expects that in Libertopia, it is believed that nobody has the right to kill another person. But by (in theory) buying up all space (air, land, sea, outer, inner, etc), one effectively is (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Darn, wish I'd seen this note before posting a second ago. (...) That's how I see it too. But that is wicked, not good and just. (...) Convince me. (...) I'm not yet convinced. I'm not ready to accept as fact that humans exist in the unalterable (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yeah, that baffles me, too. For any physical entity or object, it seems that "existence" doesn't simply imply "a place to exist," it expressly *includes* a place to exist. Not necessarily this plot of land or that particular country, but (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Uh oh...I was trimming too liberally and misrepresented DaveE's stance. Immediately before his "communistic ideal" comment, I had written "I think I think that land should be a commons, tragedy or not." Totally, my bad! Chris (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Doh! Well, my cool ontological musings remain in effect regardless... Dave! (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Wicked, yes, probably; good? arguable I suppose; just? Hmm.. hard to say. I think I would call it just. (...) Well-- here's an issue, obviously. If you could create humans who didn't have an innate desire for control, then sure, the system (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Or they have to recognize their desires as destructive and seek to curb them. (...) I agree, but I don't see why stewardship rather than ownership necessarily decreases your ability to enjoy privacy. (...) You are in effect saying that the (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Hm. I guess I have to question how different is this stewardship you're envisioning versus ownership? What does ownership entitle you to that stewardship doesn't; given that in our current system, the government can confiscate your land if it (...) (21 years ago, 15-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | I think that even with the rules of real estate essentially intact, if we called it and understood it as stewardship rather than ownership it would change the way we think about land-resources. For the better. But I think that several positive (...) (21 years ago, 15-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think we need to hold people to some standards. Let's assume that the right to exist does require us to provide minimal support to all. Now, take someone who takes their monthly check and spends it all on booze. Should we give them a bigger (...) (21 years ago, 19-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Hmm, another thought... If "rights" are a legal construct, where does "good and just" come from. Clearly we seem to feel there is some absolute measure of goodness and justness. Without such, you can't judge anyone else's actions. We probably (...) (21 years ago, 19-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Why? Why, in particular is is 'wicked' to make the best deal you can for something. We're assuming that the person you're dealing with is competent and you are not being fraudulent, right? Is selling your body off for spare parts (and thus (...) (21 years ago, 19-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) First, your stance seems to assume that notions like 'competent,' 'fraudulent,' and 'fully informed' are binary in nature and that a person is on one side or another of a clearly demarked line. I don't think that's so. Second, It's still my (...) (21 years ago, 23-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Hmm, interesting question. Some problems I see: - If the other planet has biological or sentient inhabitants, we would have to decide just what their rights are. Hopefully we would recognize them... - I would have a concern as to how (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Both. I have tried several times to bail out of .debate, but I've never really stopped reading. I do tend to skim some peoples posts, and I think I'm finally getting the self control to not respond to pointless debates, but I still read them. (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Simon Bennett
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Me too. (...) I agree with this assertion too, all goods are created from resources, all resources come from this planet (ignoring meteorites as they are clearly ar a practically infinitesimal resource). Can we all agree on this? I think that (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | I have decided that it makes the most sense for me to stop talking about space in the universe and just talk about land. Bear in mind that I think the argument extrapolates out to all habitable space, but for now, talking about land might be easier. (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Yes, it makes sense. There are certain rights that virtually everyone wants for themselves, so we make a compact with the others in a given group to acknowledge that it is best for all concerned that we grant those rights to all within the (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) If a right is just a legal construct, then why can't it be sold away or limited? (...) If a right arises simply from the people, then I'm not sure a right to exist is compatible. (...) I think we need to explore the foundations of rights. Why (...) (21 years ago, 19-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The nature of property (was: Idiots, Part Deux) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | I'm addressing three of Frank's notes here, not just the one upline from where I'm posting. As a result of my use of "good and just" coupled with the assertion that rights are merely a legal construct, Frank pointed out that we need to know the (...) (21 years ago, 23-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Vague abstract debate that puts people to sleep? —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) The whole "everything can be called property rights" seems so leaden to me. I won't argue it either way - it just seems like a game of semantics to me. What I could add is pendantic: Chris is right from a the single sale point on value, but (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Vague abstract debate that puts people to sleep? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) It may be just semantics, but I think it's hard to move forward in other realms without having a solid foundation. I know I have changed the way I do things, at least to some extent, as a result of exploring these semantic games more. (...) I (...) (21 years ago, 14-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Idiots, Part Deux —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) It might be useful to distinguish individually-ascribed worth from market-ascribed worth. That $1000 bond may be "worth" $1500 to Buyer A, but if you go on the market and say "I'm selling this $1000 bond for $1500," you'll find out what the (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Anyhow, who cares about tax liability in the US? [Re: Idiots, Part Deux] —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) The "bubble" taught us that much. :( Anyhow, who cares about tax liability in the US? See: Enron 'bribed tax officials' (URL) report said Enron profited from 12 large tax deals from 1995 to 2001 that saved the corporation more than $2bn." If (...) (21 years ago, 13-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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