 | | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) I propose that human moral awareness is self-evident from the fact that all non- intellectually or emotionally impaired humans for as long as we have record have possessed an innate belief, sense, and faculty for moral calculus. So yes, my (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Oops-- miswording/typo on my part: That's why experimental developments in other things are palatable and are unpalatable in religion-- other things aren't expected to be "fair". DaveE (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Let me see if I can phrase it better. I expect that you posit Truth (moral, judicial, 'heavenly') and God as unchanging; while Christianity (human understanding of Truth) changes as time goes on. Is that correct? (...) Not necessarily morality (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) 8^) What's your problem, anyway? I was getting set to demonize you and burn you in effigy, and then you turn out to have been reasonable all along! 8^) (...) Ah! My fault. My use of "nonsense" was intended with a note of irony (which, as is (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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This is a helluva lot more rambling than I'm comfortable with... (...) Ah -- I think I see what happened. You had replied to my message, in a fairly (imho) personal kinda way ("personal" as though one person addressing another, not "personal" as in (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) Darn, and I just told Larry I don't usually get heated replies :) DaveE (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) I suppose if one defined it that way, sure. Perhaps it's my inexperience with outside newsgroups other than Lugnet, but I've more just seen it as a general (non-person-specific) goading into debate. Certainly the connotations associated with (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Forgive me if this comes across as trolling, but my understanding would benefit from a few points of clarification. Do you propose that morality is self-evident? I accept a priori your faith in God, but did God specifically create morality, or (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) No, I don't think you'd ever notice the trend in any sort of public forum, because while it works, the most common reply to a flame is to flame back. I've kind of noticed that in o-t.debate-- a rather alarming number of the regulars quite (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) All right then. Stipulating that "troll" can reasonably be used as a neutral term, then I'll agree that I was trolling. Generally I don't accept that definition, however; never have I seen "troll" used with a positive connotation, and it's (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Indeed. I do not posit Christianity as an unchanging Thing. I do assert, however, that Christianity claims to have some insights about the ultimate nature of reality, insofar as it concerns us. Science didn't change with Einstein's theories, (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) And that would be incorrect in my understanding of the word "troll." troll (trol) verb 1. To post a message in a newsgroup or other online conference in the hopes that somebody else will consider the original message so outrageous that it (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) Thanks for the tip. Haven't seen it work that way here, though. (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) I read Stephenson's novel last year, and while I liked it, I don't think he ever gets any more interesting than his obvious sources: Sumerian mythology, and William Burroughs. And I guess I fault Stephenson, and many other Cyberpunk authors, (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) Well, the thing that's wrong with that is the fact that there's nothing *but* connotation there. Being a "bonehead" is sufficiently without good definition, whereas a "troll" post has a definition as well as a connotation. If Jeremy only used (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | RE: trolling? (Was all that OT God stuff)
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(...) I see your point, but if (hypothetically) I call someone a bonehead, there's nothing wrong with it either, except the connotation. If Jeremy was using "troll" to say "bravo to you for throwing down the rhetorical gauntlet and inviting (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Tried that. No answer. (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) So what's trolling, then? Isn't it trying to sucker someone into debating something? (albeit civilly or not) Was that the point of your sensationalism on Jeremy's point? To get someone *else* to respond who was such a fundamentalist? Not that (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Yikes--easy there, fireball. Since this is an open forum, I address my comments to any who care to respond. With this in mind, I specifically stated that I don't hold you to the literal standard, but I don't excuse others. If you perceive it (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) I dunno -- why not ask Him? ;-) *IF* I were to second-guess the guy, I would imagine that He wasn't fearful of the tower builders actually succeeding. Rather, He was probably aware of the dangers of a prideful-then-disappointed people at such (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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Oooo... Well done! You really like 'Snow Crash' by Neal Stephenson? If you haven't read it, you should. The entire book is about Nam-Shubs and 'neurolinguistic hacking'. Very cyber.. "richard marchetti" <blueofnoon@aol.com> wrote in message (...) (23 years ago, 15-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Herein lies the dilemma. The appeal of science (particularly mathematics) is that it doesn't change. Did science change when Einstein theorized that time wasn't constant? Nope. Only our understanding of reality changed. To posit Christianity (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Learning, common sense, reason, faith, and experience, all in good measure, are the best approach to ascertaining Christianity's *validity*. Since we can't absolutely prove it to be true using empirical methods--nor can we prove it to be (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) But that puts us squarely back in the "is it all true or not" debate, and how does one distinguish biblical truth from biblical falsehood? I'm not putting this forth as an all-or-nothing question, and I'm delighted to accept the assertion that (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Actually, strike that. I still don't agree with Larry. Just because someone is dishonest (read 'lacking integrity' / 'deceptive' / 'unfair' / 'untruthful' / 'insincere' / 'unreputable' / 'with affectation' / 'unvirtouous') to you, doesn't mean (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) Well, that's just not inflammatory enough for me! (...) I'll try re-sending the reply just to verify that we're able to communicate. I didn't offer any great insights, but I don't want you to think I'm snubbing you, either. (...) Ah, I recall (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) Ah, then you fell for the misleading opening comments -- if you get to the end, it's all about how there is no god. Instead, there is just a story to describe a human experience that may have to do with evolution. (...) Nope, which sucks. Try (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) I'd offer that one shouldn't read a great deal of Old Testament history with a literal eye. Much of the ancient work has a very folklorish quality from which we are meant to learn certain truths (such as the folly of pride in the case of (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) Post? What post? Actually, I was responding not to your post directly but to a point that resonated from what you wrote. To that end, I should have been more specific in identifying that your point was not really what I was addressing, and I (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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Dave! Did you even read my post? -- Hop-Frog (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) I see your point, and I've heard that argument before, but as an analogy it fails because the alleged God is allegedly omnipotent, so comparisons between a God:Man equation and a Man:Man equation aren't really valid. An omnipotent being has (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) An even more recent example of this would be the utterance of Voldemort's name in the Harry Potter series. Maggie C. (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) I would rather it were "mostly harmless". =) -- Hop-Frog (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | The Nam-shub of Enki (was Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament)
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(...) Maybe a god who loves his people does these things, in the same manner that you would stop your children from stepping in front of a moving train -- even if you had to use force to stop them. You've come to the right place to ask your (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) In that case, it's even more absurd than spiteful. Did God really think they'd reach Heaven? If so, then why doesn't he smite every satellite we launch? And if not, why didn't he let them try--and fail--since that would be a much more (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Once the tower was, constructed was the plan not to shoot an arrow at God? But I agree with you, the story I remember is that God causes confusion in the tower workers by creating the language barriers – this was more to stop the tower (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) Don't you mean "this is a trawl" ... ? OW OW OW OW OWWWW MY HEAD LFB FUT-> you know where (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Alright, I blame English. I've always thought of it as being truthful. I don't usually equate it with virtuous other than to say that I think honesty is generally virtuous. If that's how Larry's interpreting it, 'sok by me. I'll just have to (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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(...) I choose not to believe in any god, but it's not because of the sort of god "he" may be. Especially as described by the OT prophets, whose words many scholars (christian & other) have raised doubts about anyway. BTW, what *is* your sort (of (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) I think the problem here is the definition of "honest". It doesn't only cover truth (and lies). Check out the dictionary.com definition: hon·est (adj). 1. Marked by or displaying integrity; upright: an honest lawyer. 2. Not deceptive or (...) (23 years ago, 14-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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