 | | RE: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
I think that weaponry is actually a very positive message. If weapons are for defense, it shows that a nation is strong. The stronger a nation is, the less likely it is that it will ever go to war. Back to lurking. (...) one of (...) of (...) after (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.build.mecha)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Things are slow around here, so I'm going to jump into the fray. Does history bear that out? I don't think that there is a correlation between the strength of a nation and a reticence towards war. james (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.build.mecha)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
I agree 110% with James! Look at the Cold War for example, both the U.S.A. and U.S.S.R. had enough nuclear weapons to annihilate the world, but did they? Deterrence is what prevented both nations from even thinking about launching their arsenals. To (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.build.mecha)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Follow ups to off-topic.debate. I was going to say the same thing... Germany sure didn't show any hesitation to use their vastly supperior army in WWII, nor did the Romans hesitate to us theirs, or the British durring colonial expansion etc. (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) And I agree 120% with Mladen, Ever seen the movie "The Hunt For Red October"? (the best movie ever) The red october's orders are to destroy new york with their new silent "catepillar" technology. The orders to use the weapons are from the (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Wait a sec... What? Now I'll admit it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but weren't they just testing the caterpillar technology? I don't think there were any plans at all about using any weapons on the US. (...) Well-- 1st off, that'd (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Did I see a different film? I thought the "caterpillar" was the propulsion system, rather than a weapon... Anyway, I don't really recall Ramius being ordered to destroy NYC, but it's been awhile. Dave! (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Which is exactly why that foolish missile-defense nonsense is so dangerous. We're liable to create just the right conditions for a nuclear "incident" with this money-sink, er, national defense system. This whole issue just makes me sick to (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) If anything, I'd say that this reinforces a point that Eric made, at least by example. That point being that a strong military is useful in deterring other nations from attacking yours, but speaks nothing as to whether or not your nation will (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Yeah I worded that wrong (...) Oh! your right! they were only testing, the intention was to later destroy NY on a dif. mission, sorry. -Geordan- (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Yeah, sorry, they were only testing the catepillar, the sub WAS created though for the purpose of destroying a US city (...) And the entire crew on Tupolev's boat... and had he had his (...) right, the US would just be intimidated. At (...) (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) I think that "police actions" are birds of two different feathers: 1) Those with a clear moral imperative - Rwanda comes to mind. Oh wait. We just watched the massacre happen. Never mind. 2) Those "police actions" that are really calculated to (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Dude, are you making this up as you go along?!? Their orders were to proceed north, and rendezvous with Tupolev's boat, where they would conduct drills with the caterpillar drive. Then they were to return to Polyjarny (sp?). Captain Raimus (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) While I don't think Geordan knows what he is talking about, I do think that some of the Soviet diplomates did say at some point to American diplomates that they "feared he would fire the missles on the US as a renegade". This was to get the (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
"James Simpson" <jsimpson@rice.edu> wrote in message news:GIy92A.9r3@lugnet.com... (...) With that logic, I'd expect you to next say that bulletproof vests on police officers invite criminals to shoot them. It is imperative to our national security (...) (23 years ago, 31-Aug-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) I don't think that's a fair extension. Bulletproof vests are *not* sold as a guarantee of protection, rather as an added margin of safety in given situations. The problem with missile-defence is precisely that which James and Dave pointed out: (...) (23 years ago, 1-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) with (...) me (...) On the other hand, there is something to be said for Tim's extension (though it's clear that he meant it as counterfactual) as worth thinking about. If I were preparing an action of some kind that had a plausibility of (...) (23 years ago, 1-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | The Hunt For Red October (was:Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
snip (...) Hehe, It's starting to sound like that isn't it? (not sarcastic) But no I'm not, I have seen THFRO twice in fact, and right now it stands as one of my fav. movies. I obviously have a rather diffferent interpretation of the plot, and I may (...) (23 years ago, 1-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) That's a good point, and another way of getting at the problem with a missile shield. Putin has, in fact, hinted that this would be the case--can you imagine nuclear missiles with advanced ECM capability? *shudder* (...) It does, but I didn't (...) (23 years ago, 1-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Hunt For Red October (was:Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
(...) Um, yeah... now it sounds like you grasp it ok. I'm just wondering how you got from there to saying that Raimus planned to blow up NY. :^) ~Grand Admiral Muffin Head (23 years ago, 1-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Hunt For Red October (was:Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
(...) Good... I'm just wondering how you (...) I don't think I said that or at least I didn't mean it that way, but let's not argue about it. C'ya! -Geordan- (...) (23 years ago, 1-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
"Mr L F Braun" <braunli1@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message news:GIywD1.6y3@lugnet.com... (...) Neither is our missle system guaranteed protection, from what I understand of it. (...) Now, that's a good point. I'm definitely against nuclear war, but (...) (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Yes, but the perception--which is based in our adulation over technological can-do fixes, something the US has always had a severe disposition toward indulging in--is what's important. (...) It's the question of which is more dangerous: The (...) (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
First, Lindsay, I don't want to gush, but I really just love reading your stuff. Your only problem is that you're too sporadic. :-) Do you teach like this? Or does the nature of the college classroom require the lecture to be generally dry? Most (...) (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Don't you, though? It's really cool. He has tons to say. (...) (Not to go off to a tangent, but that's why I had so much fun in my American Studies class, a combination of English and U.S. History... they were two seperate classes but the (...) (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) At some point, I wonder why people don't leave dangerous places. (...) That's not nasty at all. I expect you to have a fascinating perspective on the issue. But don't believe for a second that it's an entirely easy thing for me to say. I think (...) (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Depends. I try to draw relevance to the here and now, elements of the present-day psyche or political order, whenever possible. (...) You're telling a story, kind of like Grandpa's family lore. It's just on a national--or world--scale. When it (...) (23 years ago, 3-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Indeed. He does not have enough food to feed his kids, and your big worry is how to get to the mall to meet you friends. (...) ... and how does the extra-judicial executions help? How did moving tanks into Beit Jala help? Perhaps the best way (...) (23 years ago, 3-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Chris: With all due respect, I take personal moral umbrage with this statement. You and I have already well-established that our world-views diverge just about as much as any two humans' world-views can, but, I think that this idea is still (...) (23 years ago, 4-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) disposal (...) OK. (...) But I believe that principles are inconsistent at their heart. (...) If you, your children and the bus driver are trapped under an avalanche and your children are starving, do you kill and serve the driver to avoid (...) (23 years ago, 5-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes (...) Some would assert that morality is only realized when one's life is on the line. Anyone can be moral while sitting comfortably in an air conditioned apartment; ie, when nothing's at (...) (23 years ago, 5-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) The presence of gray areas in any moral calculus, i.e., moral conundrums, does not negate moral principles. In some circumstances we do not know what the right thing to do is, but in all circumstances we can determine what is definitely not (...) (23 years ago, 5-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) Forgive my bad ettiquette, but an edit is in order; This sentence should read "Why, those who have in fact butchered, raped, and terrorized." james (23 years ago, 5-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) The fact that someone is innocent of those three acts doesn't make them guiltless for any number of others. Is this "butchery" that we're talking about the worst thing that you can imagine? Is it inherently worse than enslaving thousands? (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
|
|
(...) My response to a wrong committed against me can only be in measured proportion to the wrong in question done to me. What I'm getting at, is that I can't morally punish a man for everything he's ever done - only the crime for which evidence has (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | In light of Tuesday's events (was Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: <lots of snippage> (...) disposal (...) What say you now, sir? Alan (23 years ago, 12-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: In light of Tuesday's events (was Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
(...) The same. The fact that I am 40 miles from the site of the World Trade Center, and have spent more of the past 36 hours crying than a grown man is "supposed" to, doesn't change the logic one bit. I still hold that under some circumstances (...) (23 years ago, 12-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: In light of Tuesday's events (was Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
(...) However, your logic does not allow for "under some circumstances" but rather points to ALL circumstances. Following on from your earlier example of you, your children, a bus driver and an avalanche, whether you think Tuesday's events are (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: In light of Tuesday's events (was Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
(...) You mean like when I wrote that when less hostile opportunities to improve the situation are present, they are a better choice? My statements were not all inclusive. I can see how you might, looking to be annoyed, take my stance to be what (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: In light of Tuesday's events (was Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
Chris, I am not trying to claim that you are saying things that you haven't said. Rather, I am trying to reflect back to you the conclusions and philosophy that you have conveyed in your posts, and also to apply them to the very real tragedy at the (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: In light of Tuesday's events (was Re: Are we doing the right thing?)
|
|
(...) Fair enough. I'll try not to be testy...things have been rough and I guess I'd rather this conversation have waited a week, but here we are. (...) Last week was a long time ago. (...) watching (...) Exhibit A and a half - On Thursday, 6 Sep (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
