 | | Re: mindstorms NXT
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NXT Spec From (URL) Service FAQ> • 32-bit ARM7 microprocessor • 256 Kbytes FLASH, 64 Kbytes RAM • 8-bit microprocessor • 4 Kbytes FLASH, 512 Byte RAM • Bluetooth wireless communication • USB 2.0 port • 4 input ports, 6 wire digital platform • 3 (...) (18 years ago, 7-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT
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(...) My thought exactly. Perfect opportunity to build an outboard speech recognition device using new technology speech recognition chips hooked to the new digital interface (whatever that turns out to be) to communicate recognition "hits" back to (...) (18 years ago, 7-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT
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(...) Niiice. (...) Interesting. I wonder if this is an H8? Maybe the NXT can emulate an RCX somehow? Doesn't seem like that would be all that valuable. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. (18 years ago, 7-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT
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(...) So- it's a 32-bit processor and an 8-bit? With both 512 bytes and 64k bytes of RAM? Wonder who wrote that spec? (18 years ago, 7-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT
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(...) 64K RAM!? That's absolutely ludicrous! The RCX has 32kb entirely of programmable memory (if I remember correctly), and that is just alright. 64kb is not much space to work in at all in this era! Anyway, a dot-matrix display is nice, as is (...) (18 years ago, 7-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Actually, 64K of RAM is quite a bit. You have to remember that with the RCX you had 32K for everything. With the NXT all of the program code will go into (and run directly from) the 256K of flash -- this includes things that take up the most (...) (18 years ago, 7-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) It depends where your ambitions lie. If you want to analyse audio or video or map your environment somehow - then 64Kb is pathetically small. If all you want is something that's just a small step ahead of an RCX then it's plenty. Of course you (...) (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Well, then let's hope there's some way we can increase the amount of memory availible. I don't know about the hard-wired aspect of adding memory, but with Bluetooth... anybody thinking about a Bluetooth external memory module? Perhaps we can (...) (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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Hi Steve, (...) Not so sure about that. I would try to use the bluetooth link and let my computer do the video, audio or mapping work. I did that kind of thing with the RCX and the IR connection and it was a nightmare sometimes, it only worked (...) (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Not all flash ram is slow, ferro flash ram (e.g. FRAM) has zero write cycle time. Stef (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) You could use a bit per square inch (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) In the case of room mapping, would speed be so important? Isn't it it in the ms range? (A lot compared to an instruction cycle, but good enough for a moving bot) (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT
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I am not very familiar with the NXT platform but as it sounds now could you possibly plug a USB Flash memory stick into the USB port (or connector) on the NXT and use it for data storage? - John (...) (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Isn't there an inherent problem with this idea? If the NXT is a slave device, it is a power consumer, right? That would imply that if you connected a USB storage device, the device would not get power, since the NXT won't have been designed to (...) (18 years ago, 8-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) You could - but I might want to store more than one bit of information per square inch (eg a 'confidence' figure or a 'time since last mapped' number - or to store multiple maps so I can see how the map is changing over time). The point is (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) As we currently understand things, the USB port is a 'slave' port - not a 'master' - so you can plug the NXT into a PC - but you can't plug things like thumb drives into the NXT because that would be plugging a 'slave' USB device into another (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Right, see my other post about ARM7 and USB (I wish I knew how to link it but this web interface is killing me!). The biggest issue is one of the devices would have to implement a host constoller interface and a USB storage class driver. (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) I'm curious - I'm a physicist, not by any means a hardware type. What *is* a standard amount of on-board FLASH for a embedded system? The NXT uses some sort of ARM processor (what the heck does that stand for anyway?) - how FLASH-rish do these (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Yup. For my solution, you need ugly byte operation. Not good for a 10 year old. Still, with these robots you often design the environment to suit your limitations (eg. smaller room) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Since I'm an engineer, I will give you the standard engineering answer: Depends on the requirements! :-) (...) (URL) ARM architecture has been around for years and has been a very effective RISC based embeddded CPU core. That Wiki article does (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | RE: mindstorms NXT vs the Competition
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I'm somewhat bemused by the comments on limited memory, CPU capacity, features, etc on the new NXT brick. At $250 it fits right in the middle range of the other popular consumer hobbyist robotics kits which range in price from $100 to $500. These (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Where did the 128Kb number come from? First of all, whether it is standard or not, I like to use a capital "B" to indicate bytes (or spell out byte) and a small 'b' to indicate bits. So, based on the Lego NXT Faq, the NXT brick has 256KB(ytes) (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT
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(...) It's simple. For a message in plain text (i.e. not FTX) simply paste your link, the Lugnet web interface automatically inserts hyperlink code. -Orion (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) It depends on the application obviously...but thinking of consumer devices that cost around the same ballpark as the NXT and which are likely to be sold in similar quantities, we have PDA's, handheld games, MP3 players and digital cameras. * (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) I would be inclined to guess that the ARM is just the CPU core implemented in the same chip as all the other stuff the NXT uses. One of the huge reasons for picking the ARM is that it's very well suited to being integrated into the same chip (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) It's also possible (likely?) that LEGO are using an already available ARM7 chip, such as (URL) or (URL) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Just FYI, I programmed an ARM chip over 10 years ago (so it must have been a less powerful one than this). The assembly code was surprisingly clean, simple, and powerful. ARM is a great architecture. Something like BrickOS with a GNU C (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Well, there's a significant cost above and beyond the electronics here. The NXT *might* be comparable to a PDA, but tossing in 500+ precision-molded little plastic parts probably drives the cost up considerably (heck, just from buying sets I (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Right but that's not what I'm really asking! :-)! I'm sure its a variation of an ARM7 chip which will implement the standard ARM ISA. However, with any ARM7 implementation it can be catered to a specific applications. From the ARM website: (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) I keep hearing this (and reading in the official press releases) but having recently shopped for a cell phone, I can tell you that everyone available here (Ontario) that I can find has the bluetooth crippled to it will ONLY talk to bluetooth (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT vs the Competition
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(...) I hadn't looked at the Scribbler prior to this post... and I am stunned at how much their programming language (Scribbler Program Maker GUI) resembles the original RIS software: (URL) I'm guessing that they designed theirs on the "success" of (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) I agree. When the RCX was found to have limitations in the enthusiast community I can't say I blamed LEGO that much. With the RCX they didn't know they were going to have a market with hobbyists anywhere near that size. Now we have the NXT. (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Ouch, that's bad. Here in Sweden I can confirm that bluetooth phones with other features are around - for instance, my own phone can sync, and others can be used to remote control toys. Apart from the Ericsson car, I found TV output and (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Well, *any* machine is harder to program at machine code level. If you mean assembly, I diagree. I spent the first 18 years of my career on IBM mainframes, and the last 5 on SPARC machines. They each have their advantages and disadvantage from (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) One (Verizon) of the 2 top carrier's in the US tried to cripple the bluetooth in at least one model, and it created a large PR storm. I"m not sure whether they changed their position on that model or on future models but I havne't heard as (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) That could have something to do with the fact that the x86 architecture is extremely low on registers, pretty much all of which have special functions (CX for counting, BX for addressing, AX:DX for multiplications, SI+DI for memory copying). (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) off the shelf makes a lot of sense. Think of the development costs of using ARM IP on a custom chip. Suddenly LEGO would become a hardware development group, and the costs would be really high. Even if they used PLAs, they would still have a (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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Another possibility for the grinder bunch is seeing if the onboard flash chip can be SMT desoldered and replaced with a larger capacity model with the same pinout. I'm assuming there will be various third-party OSes to run on NXT pretty quickly, so (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Kevin, does that have to be true though? I'm wondering if a better strategy would have been to sell the NXT Core kit at a slight loss but try to make it up on expansion sets? (sort of like the game console market) Give the NXT more (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) I doubt it -- for game consoles, the computer is useless without the 'expansion sets'. For Mindstorms, most consumers will be happy with the basic product; expansion sets are add-ons, not required purchases. I don't see a way to transform (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) That's a really good point. I suspect LEGO feels that the basic, core set should cover all the bases to make access to Mindstorms/NXT easier for kids and their parents. Though there still maybe avenues in the future to offer a more advanced (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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In lugnet.robotics, Kyle McDonald wrote: If there was a $400-$500 RCX available at (...) Just to play devils advocate for a minute, but you don't know how many adults need the upgraded version. Some of the truly hardcore users hang out here but they (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) > NXT FAQ talks about playing music. You can play music quite easily without SIMD. (...) > NXT (a nice idea from the programmers standpoint). I know the J2ME KVM > can be as small as 128K. Well, you can run Java on an RCX... (URL) you (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) That's because you can actually catch a phone virus via bluetooth (it's not very secure). My wife's phone caught one - and it was a pain to get rid of. (...) Well, not NIL - but less likely than perhaps you might like. However, it's gonna be (...) (18 years ago, 9-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) And GPS... *drools* But the bot must be outdoors :( (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) every place that talks about the NXT also talks about "Bluetooth technology that allows your robot to communicate with external devices such as mobile phones". (URL) Personally, I REALLY think controlling a NXT bot with a cellphone will be (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Do you mean machine code (binary) or assembly language? I first learned assembly language programming on a MIPS chip (RISC). I've also done it on a Motorola 68HC11 (a microcontroller), and I've written both pure machine code and assembly (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) You forget LEGO already did that with the Scout in the Robotics Discovery Set. But perhaps it was too limited for people to want to buy it. If the NXT has a memory expansion slot inside it that would satisfy quite a few people I think. (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) Or with a GameBoy Advance with the wireless link peripheral (uses Bluetooth). It's not a common piece of hardware, but some of the newer Pokemon games come with it. I think about 15 games support it currently. Anyway, my GBA is one thing I'll (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) There the same. (...) I guess my last post didn't make it. Fundamentally, Steve is correct that RISC is typically more complex to program since it uses less general purpose registers and more complex instructions (it tries to do more per clock (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) Blame the phone companies. (Verizon is probobly the worst offender but others are guilty too) I know of many hacks where people have re-enabled features (including such things as bluetooth address book sync and bluetooth file transfer) that (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Obviously you've not coded in machine language, or you'd know they are not. (...) You misunderstand RISC and CISC. CISC instructions often combine data memory references with arithmetic, logical, or brach capabilities. RISC machines do not. (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) If you are talking about the actual 1's and 0's that represent machine code then you are correct and I misinterpreted your last post, i.e. the binary. When people speak of binaries they are usually referring to something like an executable (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Now you're talkin! I've never really done more than a half dozen instructions, unless it was a homework problem waaaaaaaay (and I really mean waaaaaaaay ;^) back in college. (...) I guess this is what CISC proponents say. I don't know that I (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) I totally agree! I stated this in another thread (or maybe this one) that assembly code on Intel is like Java Byte Code (but worse). I mean its not like you *really* know as a "high-level assembly programmer" exactly the order in which (...) (18 years ago, 10-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
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(...) That sounds pretty interesting as a GBA is a decent controller compared to celphone buttons. But, is there a programming language that covers enough celphones? This would make that project more practical for the range of impact. There is (...) (18 years ago, 11-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: mindstorms NXT and memory
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(...) Probably a gear reduction, similar to the RC motor: (URL) (18 years ago, 11-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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