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(...) I'd say the UN is/should be the world's policeman. What the US (and others) do independent of the UN is political mumbo jumbo all based on selfish gain. Take what is happening in the middle-east right now. If the US were to withdraw some of (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That was a throwaway comment and I didn't expect a debate, but since you're slagging the US, here I am. (...) Not sure I agree that everything the US does externally is for the benefit of the US. I think it *should* be, but it isn't. (...) (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: <snip> (...) I can add at least South East Anatolia and Cyprus to the list. I believe that, too, if Uncle Sam puts his hands on an issue, it is solely for his own gain (no matter political or monetary), and either he gained (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Oh dear. I knew it'd come to lugnet too sometime. I've had enough politics in the past three weeks to last a lifetime, but here goes anyway. (...) Maybe true. In fact, probably true. (...) Oh my. Why *would*/*should* the US remove its so-called (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I did not really intend this to be a Palestinian V Israeli debate, that always ends in looking levels of wrongness. However, if the current leader in Iraq or the former leader of serbia were to use the same methods - how would that be treated (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Not a "slag", and to just the USA. (...) I'm not sure that is true. (...) That was years ago. I'm not pround of. It is in the past. (...) ...and what about all the murderous dictators uncle sam (and the other "western" nations) supported (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is though. That's exactly what they want. (As for what you said in reply to my post - well heck, Larry didn't intend this to be a debate about the US either, right? He was just proving a point. You argued it's not true. He said it and he's (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) hard (...) I know extemists want that, but they are etremists. I read what in the UK is called a "seriouse" newspaper. I also listen to the good old BBC, which is, overall, pretty fair. Neither say what you claim. Perhaps this is part on the (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would like to believe that as well, but I cannot do so in light of the past events. Arafat was supposedly for peace, and we in Israel hoped for a serious chance to acheive it. But now it seems that the Palestinians who want peace are not a (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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(...) Are you comparing Barak, a democratically elected leader of a democratic state that tolerates dissent and has a free press and the rule of law, and mechanisms to carry out investigations of wrongdoing and a justice system that administers (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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I won't reply to all this because Me-2'ing Larry is just not something I like to do ;-)... and I really agree with pretty much everything he says. Just wanted to add some small things. In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: [...] (...) (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I also agree all of the points made, but I say a strong YES! to this. No, for the clueless, Turkey is not an Arabic country, and I'm not an Arab, but I really know what is like living in *any* Arabic country. I also know very well the look of (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Shiri Dori wrote: <snip> (...) Very good point. And should be taken seriously by any other TV-room-history/inte...ecialists. Selçuk (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Scott A wrote in message ... *I really did not want to add posts to this thread as it is feelings inolved, byt hey, I could not help myself...* <snipped> (...) Yes, especially in Northern Ireland... Wouldn´t it be greate to give that piece of the (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Which, the Me-2'ing or the particular target? :-) I didn't know we were in DISagreement all that much, actually. (...) I guess I find this a bit surprising... I after all said that I didn't think Israel should have been created in the first (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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(...) Well, I try to stay away from debates in general - I usually keep my opinions to myself, unless they are really close to home (like this one). So, you probably don't know my opinions in general - thus you don't really know if I agree w/you or (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) why not? Jordan's population is 90% palestinian. The only thing stopping it from being a palestinian state is that the palestinians are not the ones running that country. So why is it not true? Dan (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Dan Boger" <dan@peeron.com> wrote in message news:G2v4Dt.3C@lugnet.com... (...) hard (...) you... (...) it (...) Sorry, I was talking about the total destruction of Israel part. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:G2uJ31.KFo@lugnet.com... (...) always (...) Iraq or (...) be (...) state (...) that (...) Barak (...) I suppose I am. What other country uses tanks and gunships to quell civil (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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"Selçuk Göre" <ssgore@superonline.com> wrote in message news:39F34CD8.E3863E...ine.com... (...) like (...) Just (...) to be a (...) Arafat (...) "real country"? (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Joakim Olsson" <jocke@arjay.nu> wrote in message news:G2uqw7.AMq@lugnet.com... (...) I have views on NI. They will remain my own for now. But the point you make is misleading. It is an accepted fact that the majority of those in NI want to be part (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) the (...) OK. Which part of this were contorted then: Have the Israelis used disproportionate force? The video footage of 12-year-old Muhammed al-Durrah cowering beside his father before being shot by an Israeli soldier prompted much (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, you are probably right. I do not have all of the facts. Do you have all the facts regarding middle-east? Have they been able to vote about theese issues lately in NI? I know(read it in history books) in the past, that they grouped people (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:G2uJ31.KFo@lugnet.com... (...) always (...) Iraq or (...) be (...) state (...) that (...) So the democratically take land from those who have lived there for ~1500 years to give to (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Scott A" <s.arthur@hw.ac.uk> wrote in message news:G2uFr7.BxA@lugnet.com... (...) you're (...) This should have been "Not a "slag", and not just the USA." (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Joakim Olsson" <jocke@arjay.nu> wrote in message news:G2vJIA.B55@lugnet.com... (...) that (...) make (...) want (...) They, overwhelming return pro-UK candidates in local/national/eu elections. (...) really (...) highschool, (...) You are right in (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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(...) Yeah. Israel is the only REAL COUNTRY there. We are maybe in second place, but not too close. Just compare the conditions of living there, with other countries of the territory. Selçuk (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Britain's bloody hands in NI (was Re: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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(...) And that majority is composed of what? Descendants of Britons who colonised, as I understand it. The Irish who got pushed off that land so the British squires could set up estates didn't exactly get much of a vote at the time. So how exactly (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) make (...) want (...) colonised, (...) So what is your answer then? NI's problem is partly that it is still living back then... in the past. (...) again? (...) Jewish (...) who (...) usurpers) (...) Even if Britain then = Israel now. Would (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) oh - ok... you don't think Arafat want's the destruction of israel? hmmm... Arafat: [1] "Our people [are] continuing the road to Jerusalem, the capital of our independent Palestinian state," Arafat said. "To accept or not to accept it, let him (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't think so - I think it's been portrayed as disproportionate, but that doesn't prove it one way or the other. (...) do you think that that kid was killed intentionally? I seriously doubt it, and even if he was, I'm abosultly sure that (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Does this mean he wants the "destruction of israel"? (...) Is he the only one who is "double faced"? I read this yesterday on the BBC: (URL) the Israeli did not react in such a violent manner the rioting would have stopped days ago. For now, I (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) always (...) or (...) Yes, but which law: (URL) Hilmi Ghazal, a Palestinian school student from Sebastiya village who was arrested in December 1998 at the age of 15, was still in detention at the end of 1999, pending trial on charges of (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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(...) always (...) or (...) Yes, but which law: (URL) Hilmi Ghazal, a Palestinian school student from Sebastiya village who was arrested in December 1998 at the age of 15, was still in detention at the end of 1999, pending trial on charges of (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What was the question? (...) What's the point of that. (...) Didn't say it did. Recall I said I didn't think Israel should have been set up in the first place. Recall that I said that it was the UK that caused this mess. You haven't answered (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Avoidance. (...) Avoidance (...) I think I did. (...) I did not slag off the "US". I slagged of the policing undertaken by the US and its allies (inc the UK). (...) "SA: (...) LP: Not sure I agree that everything the US does externally is for (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hmmm... it certanly doens't show that he want's peace, does it? (...) says right there, btw: Israelis, no matter how left-wing, cannot take Palestinian demands on par with their own because to accept Palestinian national rights is to deny (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dan Boger writes: <snip> After Scott's last message to me, I'm going to try to take my own advice and ignore him. He's just picking a fight with you and I advise you to do the same and ignore him in this thread as well... (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) hmmm... (...) I'm sure he does want peace. Let's not doubt that. It is the terms of peace which are important. (...) What _is_ the answer then. The they are not will to treat all claims equally? (...) the (...) trying (...) A minority of those (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I could use about 80% of this to describe you Larry. (...) There is no need to mother Dan, let him make up his own mind. After all, I think he has a real opinion on this, which is backed with understanding. I'm almost enjoying talking to him about (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can't help but doubt that... otherwise, I truely believe there would have been progress in the peace process... (...) rephrase, please? I couldn't parse that last sentance... (...) I'll believe that when I'll see it. I doubt that he actually (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) equally? (...) Sorry, I think faster than I think at times What _is_ the answer then. If they are not willing to treat all claims equally? (...) Those guys have guns too - don't doubt it. They usually come round and shoot fathers in their beds (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The truly frightening thing is that the "Northern Ireland Problem" has been going on since at least Elizabethan times (ie more than 400 years). Will the "Israeli/Palestine problem" continue for as long? Kevin ---...--- Personal Lego Web page: (...) (24 years ago, 23-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry, I think you overestimate the Israeli's "rule of law". Sitting here on the other side of the world, that looks like the weak link. I've always had canny admiration for their prowess, but there's a little bit of thug on their side too. In the (...) (24 years ago, 25-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Good ref. Pournelle can be a bit of a maunderer at times, a bit militaristic, a bit high on himself, but he still has insight. I take your point. Israel has definitely got themselves thinking that they are the Chosen People who can do no wrong (...) (24 years ago, 25-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Not a huge story in its own right. But it is easy to see how stories like this, on both sides, can soon be amplified, and then become an issue. There are those who would claim that the story is no more than further proof of some sort of an (...) (24 years ago, 25-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There are those with extreme views on the other side too Larry. (...) Yawn. Sure, the UK made mistakes in the past Larry. One could talk all day about the cause of this Larry. However, that is not going to stop kids getting shot at Larry. (...) (24 years ago, 25-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If anyone is interested in the history of Israel I found this site: (URL) no expert in this area, but the pages are pretty well written. Scott A (Happy to be from the UK) (24 years ago, 25-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) From my experience of living in Israel for most of my life, I think Israel is ruled by law. Explain why it's the "weak link"? (...) what about the recent history of Lebanon? I've served there in the army, and feel that we did what was needed (...) (24 years ago, 25-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I knew there was a reason I keep going back to see what he has to say... Figuring what, precisely, bugs you about JerryP is a pastime in itself. On TV journalists, I think their job is considered done when they have outraged, insulted or (...) (24 years ago, 26-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) To begin to explain, "rule of law" refers to the Enlightment concept "a government of laws rather than men." It means impartial enforcement of the law without the enforcers favoring their own friends, relatives, etc. (Another question is the (...) (24 years ago, 28-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) _can_ harass? the police here, in the US, _can_ harass anyone walking down the street. Doesn't mean they do, or that it's allowed, right? (...) the story does imply that, without any sort of reasoning. "... I cannot think he was acting without (...) (24 years ago, 29-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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