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Hi Chris, nice to meet you. I’d’ve liked to converse under better circumstances,
but needs must dictate. At any rate, you raise some very good points, and I
appreciate your honesty. I also understand your need for some of the language,
although that’s part of what we’re trying to improve... So I’ll be honest back.
(I wrote this about three times, and it’s still too long, but there’s a lot to
cover.)
Profanity is just a symptom of some of what currently ails LUGNET. We’re finding
clashes in culture, in interests, in lifestyles, and so on. Other symptoms
include a lessening of respect for people with different opinions or viewpoints,
and openly hostile exchanges between different “factions”.
What’s broken? Can it be fixed? Should it be fixed? Who CAN fix it? Is LUGNET
doomed?
The honest answer to all of those questions: “I don’t know.”
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if you feel these abuses are happening, AND DON’T LIKE THEM, then don’t
pussyfoot around!!! just use your almighty power and cancel the post. OR set
up
scripts to auto edit out the foul language. THEN and only then will you
get the
lugnet you want.
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I’m not going to speak for Todd and Suzanne about the original intent for
LUGNET. Only my understanding of how people should be treated here. LUGNET is
unusual in that the non-anonymous members are granted an enormous amount of
respect by the administration here - the core philosophy, from my understanding,
is that people here are intelligent and can muster enough common sense to be
able to be a self-correcting community. Posts are never cancelled without a
specific request from the person who made the post. Threads are never closed.
Discussion is never inhibited. There is no censorship here. I can’t point to any
other community that I know of and say that’s true. This place is unique.
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how do you keep freedom of speech, yet still make this place safe for “all”
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Does “freedom of speech”, as guaranteed in the US Bill of Rights, apply to a
privately-owned web site like LUGNET? No. Lack of censorship on LUGNET is a
choice that has been made by Todd and Suzanne, and supported by the Transition
Team.
Can that be changed? Yes. Is it going to be? I don’t know. Is it being
discussed by the administration? Yes.
To be absolutely clear:
Amendment I of the Bill of Rights states: “Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the
people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of
grievances.” You’ll notice that “or speaking my mind about whatever I like on a
privately-owned web site” is not listed.
That doesn’t mean you will be repressed. It means there are minimal levels of
conduct for everyone here. And no, we can’t define them - but we can tell when
that conduct falls below acceptable limits.
We’re talking about a toy here - why would there be language not fit for a
(relatively sophisticated) kid to read?
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CAUSE after the “baddies” get fed up with not being able to
express themselves you’ll have just the folks you want.
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We want the baddies. We just want them to place nice. Is that a contradiction? I
don’t think so. Everybody is a baddie to somebody else. Why turn somebody away
just because they don’t agree with you? That would be a bland, boring place.
What we do want (and have asked for in the ToS) is that people respect one
another’s right to think differently.
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BUT in private communications what Larry, both in e-mail, VOICE, and on line
(AND ANECDOTALLY(sp?) WITH OTHERS) I cant help but repeatedly feel that
lugnet
is now the admins private playground and “we” are but mere guest.
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Far from being an admin’s playground, LUGNET is more like a minefield, a
no-man’s-land of barbed comments, wide trenches between viewpoints, and epithets
whizzing around. It sometimes feels like we’re performing triage on a patient
with a severed artery, the life pouring out as we watch... and none of us with
so much as a band-aid.
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BUT what i am NOT seeing is guilelines.
CLEAR non-lawyer-speak PLAIN ENGLISH guidlines.
I’ve given up that this is “todd’s” place. i now know that LUGNET is YOURS.
(the admins)
so as such, show me the rules.
DON’T bother pointing me to the TOS. that document is harder to read than the
mortgage agreement i signed to buy my house.
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We can either put together a comprehensive list of what is and is not acceptable
and watch people creatively squirm around the letter of the law; or we can put
up a less specific set of guidelines and interpret them on a case-by-case basis,
trusting everyone to follow the spirit rather than the letter of the law. We’ve
chosen the latter, which fits in with the respect granted to LUGNET members, the
assumption of enough intelligence to make a good choice. For whatever reasons,
people are choosing to exhibit behavior that clearly runs contrary to the intent
of the ToS. And we are attempting to deal with each individually.
Would you rather have to follow a laundry list of “Thou Shalt Nots” in the ToS?
Do you want to worry about scrolling through 25 pages of bullet-pointed rules to
make sure you didn’t accidentally do something wrong? Or would you rather do
what you feel is the best thing for you to do, and be reassured that somebody
would help correct any transgressions? Rest assured that if that laundry list is
put into place, there will be a lot more than 7 off-limit words. And the
creativity of this crowd is such that there would be a zillion ways to slide
around any specific rule.
You can look at admins as the police, judge, and jury; or as guides to help the
members. It hasn’t been very friendly lately. I wish I knew what to do to change
that, I really do. It’s not as simple as flicking a switch.
Oh, and though you didn’t state it specifically, I’d like to address one thing
that has been flung about repeatedly: administrative actions are not meant to
tell people what to think. Don’t like color changing? Fine with us. Don’t want
to hear about color changes anymore? Fine again. Please remember that we’re not
pushing any agenda, other than to keep this community from tearing itself apart.
Disagree all you want to - but be respectful of the person you’re disagreeing
with.
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cause i am prepared to walk away from lugnet the second this place becomes the
“forced happy fun place” i see it becoming.
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If LUGNET becomes a place where members had to toe a party line, and only be
happy-fun-cheery-smileyface all the time - I’ll walk too. But that’s not what
anybody on the admin team is trying to do.
We’re just trying to keep it from sinking deeper into a pit of despair. We could
use your help. Everybody’s help.
How?
Leg godt.
Kelly J. McKiernan
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Message has 1 Reply:
Message is in Reply To:
 | | who does chris think he is?
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| !!!!!! warning long pent up rant !!!...!!! (...) Kelly, Good morning. I don't think we have formally met. Nice to meet you. Please excuse any and all poor typo-s and bad spelling. Even thought I type like a 12 year old, rest assure I am not. With (...) (19 years ago, 21-Jan-05, to lugnet.admin.general, lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto) !
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