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Copied and followed up to .fun.gaming
In lugnet.off-topic.fun, Frank Filz writes:
>
> Actually, I agree with Bruce, Interractive Fiction is best kept to refer
> to games following closely in the footsteps of Zork.
I can understand this now that I have given more thought to the term. Such
games have a relatively strict plot and to play through it, the player must
solve a series of steps to reveal the story.
> See the problem with defining what you and I would call an RPG is that
> each of the key elements is common in other types of games. I think the
> key elements of a D&D or LARP type game are:
>
> 1. assumption of a role
> 2. talking and acting "in character"
> 3. some kind of continuing story line which links game sessions
> 4. a set of formal rules which govern interractions
> 5. a defined way for the rules to be changed.
I can see the point here too. You are saying that not all role playing is a
Role Playing Game. Cops and Robbers, or for that matter manipulating
mini-figs and making them "talk" with silly voices, etc. are forms of role
play. But those are not specific games. Only with a set of rules (elements
4 and 5) does the play become game.
If this is the case, then I would argue that strategy games that allow a
player to give a squad leader or a minifigure a voice are simply strategy
games with extra role play, but not themselves RPGs. The same would hold
true for your Monopoly example or my Amoeba Wars example -they are other
types of games that have room for role *play*, but are not true RPGs.
> Number 3 eliminates many games, though it also eliminates one-off
> convention games. On the other hand, there are many strategy games which
> can be played as a bunch of scenarios and would qualify on all these
> points (Up Front, the Squad Leader card game for example). Number 4
> eliminates "cops and robbers" (though in Junior High a group of us did
> play a "cops and robbers" style game which did have some somewhat formal
> rules).
The one-off con. games can still have an element of storyline, if the GM
offers more than one scenario, or more importantly, if he *could*. However,
considering that wargames can have continuing stories (take WWII board games
for example), and PC games tend to have sequels and prequels with some form
of linked story (Command & Conquer series comes to mind), I would argue that
your point number 3 is not unique nor needed to define an RPG (although it
is a common element in many).
> I just came back and added number 5. I think this is one of the huge
> keys to D&D and the like. The existence of a GM who is not just a
> referee, but can actually change the rules is very key. This is what
> allows an RPG to respond to new situations. You are not limited to the
> situations the game designers were able to think of. What happens when
> you throw a Fire Ball in vacuum????
I agree. It is one reason I enjoy RPGs, because every
game/session/adventure/campaign can be completely different and original.
> > What was once Computer Adventure Games (text programs like Zork) have
> > evolved to have a graphic interface (like Myst). These are sometimes
> > marketed as RPGs, but it is a matter of opinion how much (if any) role
> > playing there really is.
>
> Actually, I would classify Myst as a different sort of game than Zork.
Would you? I honestly have not played Myst, but my impression of it and
games like it was that you had to solve a series of puzzles to overcome
obstacles to reveal the plot. That would fit with the definition above on
Interactive Fiction. I may be wrong due to lack of experience.
> The games which allow interraction between multiple playes are the
> closest thing to a computer based RPG, (but I just went back and added
> another qualification to RPGs which blocks almost all of these, though
> it can still allow the MUDs and MUSHes to be close).
Agreed. NWN and Everquest have some elements that bring them close also.
> Actually, I don't think we really need a whole new classification of
> games for PBB games. They pretty much fall into the same categories
> which already exist.
I could agree that PBB is a general style of game, such as Board Game, PC
Game, Consol Game, Card Game, Team Sport, PBB, etc., wherein each of these
styles can contain games that are of any of the other catagories we might
define (Strategy, RPG, Family, etc.).
> On the other hand, it is useful to label the games
> as PBB, and it may be useful to come up with labels which help identify
> the brickness of the game (for example, the fact that most PBB games
> include at least some degree of disassembly is a significant factor). Of
> all the PBB games I am familiar with, I would say that the campaign form
> of Evil Stevie's Pirate Game is the most like an RPG (though it has yet
> to be run in a fashion which allows a continuing story line - it also
> has a pretty small degree of brickness, the only changes which would be
> necessary to use Playmobile instead of LEGO would be to define the
> classes of each of the Playmobile ships). Brick Wars and Matt's new game
> both have potential to be expanded into something more like an RPG.
They have the potential, but would it be a rule-defined RPG (according to
your elements 4 and 5)? Or would it just be a PBB with some role play?
Most PBB games so far seem to focus on the minifigure, so their level of
brickness is low, as in your example where any toy figures of similar theme
might be easily adapted to the same rules. The nice thing about using the
brick is that each player can develop a unique minifigure, a unique pirate
ship, automobile, spaceship, etc. And the GM might use the brick for some
rather detailed environments and layouts.
> I'm still tossing ideas through the back of my head on how to make a PBB
> RPG with a significant degree of brickness. To me this would be key to
> the creation of a PBB RPG. If the game is basically just going to use
> bricks as the playing pieces, I think it would be better to use an
> existing RPG system, probably one of the simpler ones. The one
> adaptation which might be worth doing is re-defining the weapons list to
> match the available brick weapons, and perhaps a few other things like
> that (but that only creates a small degree of brickness).
I have been involved recently in developing two brick related games...
BrickSiege, which I think of as a PBB strategy game, is not unlike Matt's
new game in some respects. It also has elements of Age of Empires (and the
like) that allow collection of brick resources to build new units,
fortifications, etc. It is intended for medieval settings. I apologize to
any who have read my earlier posts, but my play testing keeps getting
postponed, so I have yet to post the rules online in hopes that my final
offer is relatively free of error.
Starship, which I think of as a PBB RPG (just what you're trying to toss
around your head), is a group project being developed by a several of us
online. Basic gameplay is by e-mail. Each player has one or more
spaceships of brick they can post pics of. Players define the crew, giving
at least the captain of each ship a name and personality. When a ship
adventures, it "flies" to an imaginary sector of space and once there, a
Sector Mediator (SM) sends e-mails to the player explaining what the crew
experiences. The player then e-mails back 'in-character' to explain what
the crew does next. And so on. Most e-mails are in-character, and players
can send 'communications' to each other in-character also. This has been
done before, somewhat, but the idea of Starship is that there is a whole
galaxy of Sectors (each offering adventure of varying sorts). Each Sector
has its own SM, and movement between them is monitored by an overall
Galactic Mediator (GM). We have a short set of rules governing the galaxy
for continuity between local Sectors. Local adventures are up to the local
SMs who can set rules and do as they wish within the framework of those
galactic rules. And each SM can also be a player in other people's Sectors.
Put all this together, and we will have a game that is PBB and has all five
elements of an RPG that you mention.
It is still in the works, and anyone is welcome to view or join in the
conversation at http://www.creationcenter.com/boards/Starship/
Yet more rambling from,
-Hendo
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Message is in Reply To:
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| (...) Actually, I agree with Bruce, Interractive Fiction is best kept to refer to games following closely in the footsteps of Zork. (...) See the problem with defining what you and I would call an RPG is that each of the key elements is common in (...) (22 years ago, 26-Nov-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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