Subject:
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Re: Concerns with Racial Attitudes and Lego
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:06:10 GMT
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Viewed:
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907 times
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"Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message
news:Fz54Kp.E62@lugnet.com...
> Certainly it is great that TLC has in some ways opened its eyes to a • broader
> demographic, but it is unfortunate that certain spectres from their past • still
> linger. Because minifigs have persisted more or less unchanged for over • two
> decades, it is not unreasonable to infer that the policies regarding • minifigs
> at the time of their inception remain in place (in some form or another)
> today. In short, I'm not complaining about what they did in the past, but
> rather I'm taking issue with what they've done in the past and continue to • do
> in the present.
Alright, I'm beginning to understand you now.
> > For Lego to even attempt to be politically correct is a no-win situation.
>
> Like "race card," "politically correct" is a knee-jerk term and should • be
> applied with caution. At any rate, since political correctness is not • what
> I've been proposing, I see no need to refute this point.
Yup. The issue of 'political correctness' is something that I have a strong
opinion on, but this isn't the time or the place to discuss that. I was
probably scratching the surface of my opinion when referring to it.
> > The person who can look at another person and not see a skin color, not • see a
> > disability is the one who isn't racist, or isn't discriminatory.
>
> I have met no one in my entire life who truly fits this criterion, and I
> would greatly like to meet such a person. Everyone has preconceptions • based on
> individual experiences that form their expectations of people. This is
> unfortunate but true.
I agree. I'll be the first to admit that I fomulate opinions on people
based on what I see, and make generalizations on entire people groups. Its
not something I'm proud of, but its something that exists, and something
that I'm willing to admit to. Its not right, either.
> > Yes, there is a skewed demographic in place. Is it unfortunate, is it • not?
> > That's not for me to decide. And is it a direct effect of the way TLC • has
> > marketed its product? Only surveys and studies could tell you that.
>
> You're missing my point; I'm not saying Lugnet's demographic is • responsible
> for TLC's marketing.
I don't believe I implied that anywhere.
> It's fine for a bunch of us to sit around discussing the
> problems of minifig representation when we're not presented with a sizably
> disparate perspective. You and I are two average caucasians speculating • on
> the problems of race, and I expect our experiences are markedly different • from
> other people in the world, not represented here on Lugnet, who would
> nonetheless have valuable insights to contribute to the discussion.
Yup...
> > The Duplo figures was something that I had totally forgotten about. And
> > IIRC, they've been doing that for quite some time. Tell me, are those • figs
> > available in the retail catalogs, or only through S@H? I believe I only • saw
> > them in the S@H catalogs.
>
> I don't understand the signficance of the products' inaccessibility. • Would
> Duplo be more of a factor if they were available in every retail store?
I'm just thinking about how they marketed them. If they were only available
at S@H, that limits their exposure. Make speculations on S@H customer
demographics as you wish. But for these figs to be as effective as
possible, it would be in their best interest (if that was their goal) to
market them to as broad of a range as they could, meaning, the toy store
chains.
> > It may fail for him, but I'm saying that he chose not to make a huge • issue
> > about it. He didn't cry racism when he made the fig,
>
> Hold it. Aside from the aforementioned unhelpful poster, who here has • cried
> racism? Why is it so important for those in opposition to the subject to
> label the discussion as racist? That seems, to me, an overly convenient • way
> of dismissing the matter without dealing with it.
Hmmm... I think I was more pointing out that he did not, than anyone here
did. And that I appreciated the fact that he did not, but was lighthearted
and constructive about it.
> > EVERYONE at the event (Legoland CA, Kidvention) absolutely loved the fig • and
> > thought it was cool, and hilarious! But he didn't use that platform to • talk
> > to us all about discrimination. He had fun with it.
>
> That's great, but it would have been nicer if kids could pick minifigs • to
> represent themselves without having to undergo major customization work. • If
> minifig yellow truly depicted every "race" then your friend would have • found
> no reason to customize his in that way.
I see your point.
> > Vaguely recalling the white figs - my best friend had some, cause to his
> > mom, 'they're all Legos.' :\ They did look rather silly, and even
> > horror-film-ish.
>
> The ones I have don't have separate legs, either, so they're even
weirder!
Heehee! :)
> > But - I'll bet that those sets will FLY off the shelves, for people to
> > gather up those colored minifig heads and hands.
>
> So obviously there is a demand. Even if we accept the apocryphal "TLC • says
> yellow is ALL races" argument, why wouldn't they want to sell to such a
> lucrative market?
Obviously not a question that we can answer correctly....
> Fair enough, but you can't dismiss the argument itself because of one
> goofball's spew, nor can you hold anyone else responsible for his drivel. • I
> find his "discourse" objectionable not only because of its limited content • but
> also because of its counterproductive effect on the discussion.
Yup. But I also feel that this doesn't have a terribly big place on
Lugnet - I think its counterproductive to the group. We've seen one person
taking one side of the issue go too far, and it would be a shame to see
amything more heated come out of this.
Lugnet is for being constructive, and for providing constructive suggestions
which hopefully TLC is reading. Damien has provided suggestions, but they
have been motivated by an agenda and are not constructive in the least.
> > How does the color of a spaceship relate to racism, even in the least??
>
> Exactly! It doesn't relate, even in the least, just as our discussion • of
> the value of a non-yellow Lando/Mace/Panaka figure doesn't relate to • racism,
> even in the least. Despite continued pressure to make it a race issue, • and
> despite the troll-like contributions of one thoughtless poster, that's not
> what the essence of the debate is about.
Well, then I feel that this issue as it applies to STAR WARS figs is NOT a
race issue. It is an issue of being accurate to the movie, like TLC has
done with its previous products (in portraying people, not spaceships). But
as soon as its steps beyond that, at least by two attitudes portrayed here
(Damien and Bruce), it becomes political.
Bruce has some good points, BTW, and I respect him for them. I don't agree
with his claim that everything is political, however (reading back, I
believe that was him who said that. Correct me if I'm wrong). But he can
get his point across effectively, and that's a good thing.
> > Its a difference between paint scheme,
> > and human (or whatever life form if we're referring to Star Wars) • genetics.
>
> True, but the fact that people have complained about the "paint scheme" • of
> the Millennium Falcon set indicates that it is important. Why is the
> portrayal of a character any less so?
From the portrayal of a character POV, I agree with you 100%. It is
important these characters be portrayed like they were in the movie, if TLC
is going for accuracy.
> > Because as I said earlier, there will always be someone to play the race, • or
> > discrimination card, and TLC (nor any other company) can't satisfy • everyone.
> > Too many protests, too many lawsuits. They should just stay out of it
> > alltogether.
>
> Alas, as you've agreed in a reply to one of Bruce's posts, it's too late • for
> that.
I believe I posted this right before I agreed not to continue using that.
Yes, its too late, and I apologize. But I don't recall replying to Bruce,
it was you I was in reply to....
> Whatever the answer may be, the head-in-the-sand approach TLC has taken
> so far doesn't appear to be working. However, dismissing the debate as
> a "politically correct" "race card" is unfair and premature, since it • fails to
> take into account the actual spectrum of opinions and experiences in this
case.
I suppose so. Personally, that's where I believe this is leading. But
that's my opinion formulated by experiences and by my views related and
unrelated with this issue. In order to listen to intelligent views from the
other side, I'm willing to dismiss talking about it in that respect. But I
don't see a way to dismiss the rather offensive babbling that Damien has put
forth recently. It was way out of line. So, I'm here to listen, but
serioulsy, his comments really cheapen this debate, and add to my negative
opinion of it. Its not something that I can really help - it just happens.
--
Tim Courtney - tim@zacktron.com
http://www.ldraw.org - Centralized LDraw Resources
http://www.zacktron.com - Zacktron Alliance
ICQ: 23951114
AIM: TimCourtne
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Concerns with Racial Attitudes and Lego
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| (...) You forgot to include yourself. I have connected my comments to the movie, and its implications in respect to the entire Lego line, as have you. You are attempting to dismiss others viewpoints as "political" (and I only use the term because (...) (24 years ago, 11-Aug-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Concerns with Racial Attitudes and Lego
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| First, I have to say that I agree with practically everything that Dave Schuler Writes in post 6299. But, I have to point out some comments that i found to be disturbing. Dave Schuler writes that "It's fine for a bunch of us to sit around discussing (...) (24 years ago, 14-Aug-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Concerns with Racial Attitudes and Lego
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| (...) Certainly it is great that TLC has in some ways opened its eyes to a broader demographic, but it is unfortunate that certain spectres from their past still linger. Because minifigs have persisted more or less unchanged for over two decades, it (...) (24 years ago, 11-Aug-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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