 | | Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | (URL) military officials said U.S. forces fired on the Palestine Hotel in response to sniper fire from various floors. It is not clear if the explosion was the result of the U.S. response." Comments to this: a) the hotel was across the river from (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | | (...) The leadership of the army knew that the hotel was full of journalists, and avoided making it an explicit target. However I don't think that every front line soldier is given a map of every building and told which to shoot and which not to. (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | (...) I won't dispute that the leadership knew of the hotel, not that it did not want reporters killed. I ask you though, "to avoid making it an explicit target", isn't it implying it can very well be an "implicit" one, whatever that may be? (...) I (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | (...) As I pointed out in another post, people on the 11th floor didn't hear the actual explosion loudly enough to find it suspicious, so the failure to hear rifle fire is hardly incredible. I work in a conventional office building--if someone fired (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | | | | | (...) I'll agree they probably didn't give an order that the building should never be shot at. I think that order would be just as idiotic. I don't think they shot at it just to shoot at reporters though either. Which some news reports have (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | (...) Please elaborate. Personally, I think a (known to be occupied) hotel is a "don't shoot" place, much like a hospital. If the troops see anything that disproves that, then they should report to the hierarchy and ask for orders. It was a very (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I think this particular regime waived that notion when they started stationing (and firing) AA from inside hospitals and stationing (and firing) tanks next to mosques. These reporters were told that Baghdad was a dangerous place and they would (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Evolution? Don't you mean natural selection? Cheers Richie (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) So what - you soot the mosque next to the tank, or the tank? Do you shoot the hospital wards next to the AA, or the AA? Or in this case, does the tank shoot at the MoI (target), or the hotel some 100+ meters from it? (...) Precisely. Those are (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) You shoot the tank, or the AA, and hope for the best. I like Frank's analysis... if your enemy is desperate enough to blow off the normal rules of war, you don't get a free pass, you still have to do your best to stick to your own rules and (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) A clever idea, but a common misconception: after tens of thousands of years of people existing, most of us are still pretty stupid - at least some of the time (hey, I persist in posting to o-t.d!). The long run must be pretty long indeed! (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Actually, I'd say we're pretty smart. In reality, I think the average person doesn't have much care for most of what goes on in the world because it simply doesn't really effect them (see my earlier discussion on the total impact to me (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Stupid People (was Re: Hotel Palestine) —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Probably true. But Larry's assertion was that stupid people getting themselves killed was 'evolution in action'. Assuming that when Larry says 'evolution' he means 'evolution [of something] through natural selection', I see no evidence that (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) And is it your responsability? Or accountability, if you prefer? (...) There was no such thing. If there were an RPG, knoing it's fire would have been obviously noticed (and reporters had the time to run), it could be taken down with a shell. (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) Do they have to wait for orders from above for ANY threat? How far up do they have to go to wait for orders? Does each soldier have to call Bush (commander in chief) on the phone before shooting someone who might be a non-combatant? Soldiers (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | (...) No. (...) It's not just "wait for orders"; is "wait for superior assessment of the altered situation". The hotel, which would in abstract be a non-target, might become one AFTER command's assessment of the situation. They receive info from the (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | (...) If the sniper had fired an RPG at the tanks instead of an AK-47 (or whatever), would you likewise assert that the targeted soldiers should hunker down and wait? And, once you agree that the presence of an RPG changes things, you'll need to (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) No. In case an RPG had been fired, people (near it) in the hotel would have been able to tell and run away. And the response would have been proportional. Then again, was there a sniper? (...) Would a sniper be so IDIOT to the point of (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) But why does some "commander" have to make a decision? The tank commander is a "commander". If a tank commander can't make immediate decisions, then how can you argue that anyone short of the chief can make decisions? Does a private have to (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | (...) Targets suspected of housing the enemy, but known to house third parties. Regarding the command level, I argue the commander of the tank hadn't got enough information to make that specific decision: he should have been told it was a hotel, and (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | (...) First Al Cezirah Baghdad office (bombing, 1 cameraman died, three injured), then Abu Dabi TV Baghdad office (tank fire, no causalties), then Hotel Palestine (tank fire, two died, three injured). All in yesterday, all in just a single day. I'm (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | | | (...) Actually motives are a good question. What possible motive could they have had to kill *any* journalist, that would have provided a benefit to them that was worth all the bad press they are receiving now? They have been going out of their way (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) It's hard to second-guess battlefield conditions, though I agree that it would have to be an impressive rifle to damage an Abrams. Were there unprotected soldiers or civilians on the ground near the tank? That might change the priority. A (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | (...) From what I could see on the footage, there were at least two tanks and no visible ground troops. I assume the camera, which was located at the hotel, to have about the same viewpoint as the alleged sniper. (...) The RTP reporter was (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | I must take exception to the use of the term "coalition" -- a coded term intended to suggest dozens in numbers when in actuality only 3 countries are actively participating in the INVASION of Iraq: the U.S., England, and Australia. Further, there (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | (...) (I have reasons to believe there is a Polish contingent over there as well; and I know that the Spanish Navy has ships deployed in the region to assist in the operations. It's a wider gang than you may think at first, even though only 3 of the (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | (...) Really? Not by any definition I'm familiar with - why do you think it suggests 'dozens'? We have a coalition government in Australia (and it's often refered to as 'The Coalition') which consists of only two parties. (And I note that our (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Tanks are not necessarily buttoned up (hatches closed with the crew inside). I don't know the current tactical doctrine on whether the commander stays exposed for greater visibilty or trusts to the optics and air-conditioning of the tank or (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) This one was. See it in www.euronews.net (choose language first; by the time I'm writing this, it's the second video on the main stories page - requires real player to be seen). The story is here: (URL)b) "unclear", my @$$. European network (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) option with the exceedingly long lag delays. Neither the story nor the video. The video would only be conclusive if it showed the whole incident from start to finish, not just the moment of firing. (...) Regarding reports: see what I mean? (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) I regret to hear it's no longer there. If I find this video on the web, would you care for me to send it? (...) The footage showed some 5 secs of the tank turret taking aim, then shooting, then the camera shook. If the tank and the target had (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Post it here, but I believe that I have seen the video on CNN - they were showing it, but running on about something else. Tank shoots building. Pretty straightforward and undeniable. (...) (strategic snipping of my own comments to string this (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) Then you've probably seen it. I'm still looking for the video, though. (...) I still maintain the crewmen could have chosen to look more carefully. The hotel has enough side clearance to stand isolated, so there are no distractions to it. e (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | (...) What if they didn't have a special ops team? You seem to want the military to hang its butt out to avoid any possibility of injuring non-combatants. If the good guys always fought the way you seem to want them to, we wouldn't be living in (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | (...) Not hang its butt. Just a little more observation skills, to be put to work before the shootout. (...) If I did, would I have posted? (...) You said it. Pedro (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) Whoa. Let me state that the three people's opinions that I most respect and enjoy reading are yours, Pedro's, and Lindsay's (okay, maybe throw Dave! in there, though he can get a little short at times (as if I'm better <g>)). This is one of (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) What are you talking about? My posts are as long as anyone's. Dave! (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) Your post isn't short but is as long as anyone's? Absolutely, positively no comment. ;-) -->Bruce<-- (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) I was in the pool! Dave! (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) Cold water shriveled your post, I suppose? Oooooooo, sorry, does, that count as comment? -->Bruce<-- (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Ouch! This, from the guy who claims to throw me on the "respect" heap. Cold water, indeed... Dave! (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) Well, I did say "is rapidly getting pointless" not "is pointless" or "has been pointless". I think we have reached the point where everyone is starting to repeat themselves by repeating themselves. The only way out of the impasse at this point (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) The answer is simple: they were under fire. You can't wait around for a Delta Force team to be rounded up, briefed, assess the situation, and then make a strike. Mortar rounds are coming in *now*. I don't think asking guys in a tank to take (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) There is more than one way to take an objective. This approach, if proven too hard, could be abandoned for a better one. (...) That situation you refer as possible would present an interesting possibility: to wait, out of range. A hospital is (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Not too hard: too slow. Shells are dropping. Mortars require a spotter. As I said, there are circumstances where you can't shilly-shally (delay, stall, avoid positive action). Oops! Just lost B company, maybe we can make a group decision, show (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) That decision is easy to take. In a few words, the tanks can fall back to point "A", where no mortar can reach. (...) Indeed. (...) Sorry, I misread. My bad. (...) But I'm not advocating delay under exposure - that's why I say fall back, (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) This is what Frank was talking about when he mentioned the circuitous nature this conversation has taken on. I say *why* simply pulling back is not the answer, and you simply repeat that the thing to do is withdraw without addressing my (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) (scratching my head) All that what you've said is what appears reasonable, but strictly from a military POV. Although the casualties can be (arguably) decreased in regular action with that quicker method, the risk of catastrophic failure under (...) (21 years ago, 12-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Yes, it is from a military point of view, but it's a military situation. You can only manage things on a political level down so far, and then it becomes counter-productive. Planes are easier, because there are fewer and thus easier to manage (...) (21 years ago, 12-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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