 | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | (...) While I agree with the trend of your note as a whole -- times have never been perfect and nostalgia is often silly, This one point seems weird. I would rather that people have the ability to trick me losing my money than to take it from me at (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) I presume you're talking about the government in the latter case, but can you rephrase that without the "at gunpoint" phrase? There's no initiation of force involved; it's simple enforcement of social contract. You may disagree with the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) False. Contracts are things agreed to by both parties. I was never given a choice to reject taxes and the attendant benefits. I am no more _morally_ bound by this "social contract" than were the Africans enslaved in the south through their (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) That is absolutely true. (...) By remaining in the country (and partaking of the benefits of government programs) you have willingingly entered the contract (or your parents entered you into the contract, which you must take up with them). (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | (...) I think there's a big difference b/w the two--in your case, the services you receive via 'your tax dollar' aid you as well as your fellow man. Sure you were 'born into' the agreement, or 'moved into' the agreement when you become a citizen of (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) What do these goods have to do with taxes? Except for the second order effect of a legal framework to protect contracts, that is. There's no reason any of these have to be government provided. You picked the wrong goods to praise government (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) Right, and the "taxes" paid by the slaves -- in the form of 100% of their productivity -- aided them as well as their fellows. They were fed, clothed, and housed without ever having to worry about those things. And in some cases, the system (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) You've got to stop using the slaves as an example, because you're hurting your argument. The slaves were forcibly removed from their homeland and forcibly kept at work here as property. They had no opportunity to renounce citizenship and leave (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | What are the criteria used to determine if an analogy is adequate? No analogy will be perfect because it isn't the exact situation that is being discussed. It is a tool used to point out certain particular similarities that are important to the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Oh, come on. An analogy is inadequate if the salient characteristic likened between the two subjects is fundamentally distinct, as in the case of a slave who cannot leave the US and a citizen who can freely expatriate (and renounce that same (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) This ia always an interesting quandry. The contract has always been viewed as new-generation-enforcable, but is that correct? Are you bound by your parent's contract (or as far back as necessary to either the original constitution or your (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) And I pay my taxes and vote my concience. I just think it's messed up to call it a contract. It's a dodge. I'd be happier if we just enunciated the fact that we are partially or sort-of owned by the state. As long as they control our right to (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Rather than simply asserting that it is not a contract, you must demonstrate why it is not a contract. You can't just say "it's a dodge" and pretend to have refuted it. (...) The slaves who were freed (and thereafter remained in the US) (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) As I said, morally you may be correct, but practically, I see no better way to proceed. It's not an ideal contract, because you are bound by your predessor's contract, not one you made for yourself. I must admit I categorically reject the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) The problem is there's no free market in governmental systems at the moment, and the present players collude to keep it that way. (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | (...) That doesn't really address the topic at hand (and perhaps that was your intent). -->Bruce<-- (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Sure it does. You can't argue that we have the right of choice if there's no free market (of ideas, or of systems) to choose from, except unless you argue that we have to lump the choices, constrained as they are by the International (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) You seem to be confusing between choosing from what's available, with having a right to choose from what's available, with somehow expecting that you should be offered whatever happens to suit your fancy. So, yes, I can argue it. (...) I'm not (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Sorry if I haven't been clear. I don't have any expectation that the market will provide me whatever I fancy, in this market or any other. What my expectation is, though, is that for it to be a free market, there cannot be unreasonable (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) I'm still not getting where you are going with this, Larry. Free market of governments? What in the world does that have to do with inheritable contracts as a system of stable (or coercive) government? Unreasonable coercive barriers to entry (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) This subthread got a start when someone said "if you don't like it (that you inherited a contract), vote with your feet". Perfectly valid statement. What I was trying to point out was that it is not a perfect solution. Life isn't perfect, of (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | (...) News Flash--nothing is perfect. Not to bring religion into it, but we live in a fallen world. Beyond the religions scope, Democracy is the 'lesser of all evils". Heck, you and I don't even live in a pure democratic society, and basically used (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | (...) I would surmise that "Fre Market" and "Governmental Systems" are exclusive. There has to be oversight to "Free Market" in order to maintain the safety and health of those involved in the Free Market system--hence Gov't. I live in a reasonably (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Sorry, David, you were reading too fast. You missed the point. I speak of a marketplace*of* ideas themselves, a marketplace IN government systems. But be that as it may, past reading in this group will show that I don't agree that government (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) If it is being tampered with, then it isn't free. Or is that what you meant? (...) Building codes also prevent a wide array of construction techniques that are cheaper and safer because the building industry is entrenched in the code setting (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) The market is plenty free--we have 200+ nations to choose from! The fact that no nation has arisen to suit the desires of every last person is irrelevant. That's the market in action. Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) There are sufficiently high barriers to entry (the 200+ nations collude together to prevent new entrants) that your assertion that "the market is free" is false, Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) How so? Do you mean we're not free to form a new nation, or that we're not free to move from one to the next? In some cases, the latter is certainly true, but that's just the market in action; different types of product are available, with (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | Preface: Plowed ground alert. I probably shouldn't have posted a flurry of responses, just summarised and let it go. This has been discussed before at length. That said, onward. (...) Not in and of itself. But if you had a grand scheme for a $1000 (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) I think you simply couldn't resist an opportunity to invoke Dave! (...) I may be misunderstanding the question, but let me try with a hypothetical stab at it. Suppose you and a group of like-minded individuals locate and claim a previously (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal
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| | | | | | | (...) I think Larry is referring to the constraints of the monopoly of the 2 party system in America. As I have in the past, I see nothing wrong with joining one of the 2 parties and working for change *within* that context instead of trying to (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | (...) Because others do things in a way that doesn't adhere to the "Too high" standard that the almighty United States sets for the rest of the world... I'll stick with Canada, where new political party(s) can spring up overnight, and long standing (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Does such an island exist? As far as I can tell, all land on this planet is either claimed by some particular government (and thus ought not to be hived off without the acquiescence of that government, or of the landowners or at least of (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Alas, that's just the way it goes; do you think that in a government-less world that wouldn't be the case? I want the free market to cough up a free place for me to live, but the free market doesn't do that any more than the current situation (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) I'll let the market (of ideas) decide. Oh wait, it did! You lost, Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Really? Then why can I only choose from a field of one cable company in my area? Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) Because you have a coercive monopoly. A government granted that company a monopoly... But you know this already, Dave! What are you up to? (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | (...) Yes, seriously--why is that? One cable company--I hate that. I don't want to go to satellite 'cause then I lose my internet connex, and I dislike High Speed dial-up, etc. But every few months, my cable bill goes up a couple of dollars, even (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) How does one exit? What if the contract was abrogated by one side (the side with the big guns)? (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Well, explain how it was abrogated (in legally specific terms) and then file suit. Otherwise, leave the country and renounce your US citizenship. Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) Then they will discover the power of democracy. ;) Remember Bush’s "Read my lips" promise? Scott A (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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