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(...) But if I sell you an old 3055 (say) for $3 & postage is "Merchandise" more appropriate than "gift"? Merchandise is more for describing buying from a commercial organisation. If anyone is selling several thousand dollars worth pa then perhaps (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Not unless you define merchandise as necessarily above a certain cost or from a certain source. I'd say merchandise in this case is when you've paid for the contents of the package. If you only paid shipping, then, sure, mark it as a gift. (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm am talking about the intent of the form. If I as an individual am selling you goods as an individual I do not view that as "merchandise" when I fill in the form. If I as an entrepreneur were selling goods to you and others for profit then (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree with David. A sale is a sale. If you received any payment for it, it's merchandise. Even if you only paid for shipping. Anything else is lying, at least to yourself, and possibly to the world at large when you make such a specious (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | EconMinutae 101 (was: Customs question...)
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(...) If my seven year old son trades his PBJ at the lunch table in school for the next kid's swiss on rye, was it merchandise? If not, is it because of your profit clause above, or because it wasn't a cash transaction? He thought it was a (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't agree. In your situation you are knowingly and deliberately lying, breaking the law and trying to make some clumsy political point whilst doing so. I am disagreeing with the interpretation of the word “merchandise". Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Lets make this crystal clear... suppose you and I both lived in the US and we had the same level of yearly sales (say 5 things a year, well below what you and I do in actuality) and we had identical lots to buyers in the same country (say OZ). (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So if you make enough money, you're a commercial organisation? What if I sell you my car? Is that enough? What if I sell cookies that I make every weekend? How about if I just sell cookies for one weekend? Problem I have is that defining (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Bottom line is that *you* don't get to define merchandise, the people who wrote the form (and made the law) do. Doesn't matter what you think. thanks, James (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The form, at least in the US is very terse. There is essentially no explanatory text. It seems to me that they leave it up to my discretion to use the form how I see fit. What do you check if the package contains gifts and merchandise? Both? (...) (23 years ago, 19-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: EconMinutae 101 (was: Customs question...)
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(...) I think we're getting way off here-- the question is "Is it honest to mark packages as 'gift'?" Is the PBJ merchandise? Eh, I dunno. I'd hesitate to call it such. But I certainly wouldn't call it a gift. If you're trading Lego for Lego? Eh, (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: EconMinutae 101 (was: Customs question...)
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(...) Yes, both received something of value (to them) in exchange for their goods. (...) Again, you're receiving something of value for your goods, so it's not a gift. Generally, in working out a trade, both parties agree on some kind of monetary (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, its gets attenuated pretty fast. In the U.S. such a thing has it's origins in congressionally generated legislations, is duplicated by administrative law (sometimes with errors, additions, and omissions), and implemented by people that (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: EconMinutae 101 (was: Customs question...)
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(...) Whereas I would call it a lie but not necessarily dishonest. I go back to my example I gave earlier. Are inflatable tanks lies? Yes. Are they morally wrong? Not necessarily. (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) US D of I ROSCO (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) However, your "act of kindness" may result in a lot of extra trouble for the recipient, if it's proved false. At best, they'll have to pay the duty anyway, but there may well be other penalties. If they *ask* you to mark it as a gift, then I (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) How can someone be held accountable for something they did not do? Customs would have to prove that the recipient falsely asked me to mark the package as a gift. Failing that, the recipient has done no wrong -- committed no positive act in the (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) <snip description of legal mumbo-jumbo> (...) Personally I don't give a wet noodle how you mark your customs forms, unless you happen to be sending them to me, in which case I'd prefer honesty in the declaration. I'm not vehemently opposed to (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Their views/wants are irrelevant in this. It is *you* who are filling in the form. It is *you* who are deliberately committing fraud. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nope. It doesn't. At least, not in a legal sense Legally, you don't have a say. *Especially* if it's in another country :) Does it matter what you think in terms of how moral you are? Sure. How honest you are? Sure. (...) Ah-- debatably (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Or the principle says that it's a particularly moral act because you're standing up, willing to deny funding (in a small way) to a corrupt bureaucracy. If you think that's so. Those of us who think that governance is bad have it particularly (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Agreed I spose-- I was more or less implying my own morality for myself (or was trying), but yes, if you find it to be moral, yeah. However, the more I think about it, the less I can concieve of it being actual "moral", so much as "justified". (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) anyway, (...) Whether or not they know the declaration was untruthful, they have failed to pay duty on goods which require it by law. If you're importing goods, it's your responsibility to pay the appropriate duty (at least in Australia). The (...) (23 years ago, 20-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) even (...) was (...) Well, your three categories of morality isn't my baby, and I'm not even sure I agree with it as morality-o-meter, but let's look at it this way: (...) You're defining justice as truth? I think it is fairness and/or equity. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) (Honestly curious) So how would you categorize subsets of morality? I've basically attempted to come up with different ways in which to violate morality. The two most basic being "that's not fair" or "that's mean". One might also say "you (...) (23 years ago, 21-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) I guess, ultimately it's your decision, however if you go against the client's wishes (either lying without their consent *or* not lying after they ask you to), it may well be deterimental to any future dealing, so realistically, it's probably (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) I haven't denied that I'm breaking a law. (...) But you haven't given a yes or no answer to this question. Repeating, is it your assertion that when you rationalise something for your convenience that you're fundamentally honest than someone (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "merchandise". (...) But it's *them* who requested it, it's *them* who benefits (or not, if customs disagrees with the declaration), and it's *them* who may think twice about dealing with you in future if you decline their request. As I've (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Yep. If you value your future dealing above your "honesty" towards their government, as well as valuing their happiness above your "honesty", so be it. (...) Nope. It's only the client's decision if they have that much sway over you. If you (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) client's (...) But even if they don't have that much sway over you, and you choose to say "no", they may well choose to say "forget the deal" and you have no decision to make anyway (except what to put in the negative feedback comments). So (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Your question is not valid. Post a valid one, and I'll do my best to answer it. That's the kind of guy I am. That's the kind of guy you are not. I thought it was thanksgiving? Should you not be spending time with your family? Scott A (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) I'm not sure. I guess my strongest notion about morality is that it's a bogus idea (like religion) designed to manipulate others into building a society that benefits certain people. (i.e. my sense of morality, had I one that I championed, (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) I agree-- although I don't think I'd word it quite so :) But more or less, I think that's a fair assessment. (...) Well, given the above agreement that morality is aesthetic, who cares about what they think? We're talking about the person (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Customs question...
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(...) Nope. Because you still had to make the decision to say "no" to them :) And certainly they have the power to make you not have to *make* a decision by never even beginning to buy your product, but that doesn't affect your moral valuation, IE (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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