 | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Ross Crawford
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| | | (...) The use of a 767 on Sep 11 was probably deemed effective and appropriate by the perpetrators - with a little investment in pilot training, and without the need to carry into the country any explosives or risk discovery by building their own, (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Let me see if I can paraphrase your position accurately: Regarding an enemy who not long before had made an unprovoked attack against US soil, an enemy that had been responsible for hideous medical experiments (not to mention the extermination (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) The problem is the hole I dug for myself here. We hold them to be terrorists but they do not hold themselves as such. Rather they see themselves as combatants in a war against evil (US) which they *have* declared, some time ago, and which they (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) how (...) It's easy to use words like "cowardly" in such situations - were the pilots flying the planes which dropped the bombs "cowardly"? No they were following orders (they may have even volunteered). Was Truman "cowardly" then - he wasn't (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Let's not blur the issue here. What was cowardly about the Sept 11 terrorism was that it took no courage to hijack civilian aircraft during peacetime and steer helpless civilian passengers into buildings. That's hardly the same as the US (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | (...) I don't view the terrorists as cowards. They may well have been deluded, but they were not cowards. The answer to Ross's Truman question is "no". Although, Truman did not drop the bomb personally, he is responsible for that action. It could be (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | (...) Yes, let's not blur the issue-- what part does being cowardly have in being a terrorist? Let's say they flew their own planes into our buildings. No longer a terrorist action? I don't think whether they/we were cowardly or not is really (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) It would still be cowardly for them to fly their own planes into the buildings because they would be making an unprovoked attack against innocent and unsuspecting civilians on the civilians' home soil during a time when the home nation was at (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Still, my point stands then? Whether or not they were cowardly is irrelevant to whether it was terrorism, yes? (...) !! Sure there is. Attempting to get someone/a group of people to do something by making them respond to terror that you induce (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | (...) I would argue that it wasn't unprovoked. And why were the innocent civilians unsuspecting, when bin Laden had already given several warnings, and "declared war on the US" some 5 years earlier? And just for thought, how much warning did the (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) a (...) Yes ROSCO (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Are you satisfied with the reasoning you presented before in support of that? Has anything about it changed with Dave Eaton's presentation of his rationale? (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) I haven't presented any reasoning in support of that before. All my reasoning before has been about whether or not it was terrorism - nothing about morality in there. ROSCO (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | (...) Er, yes, there is. Read Dave's statement, to which you replied "Yes," again. You say, thus, that they *are* morally equivalent. The term isn't the problem (it hasn't been for most of the .debaters), it's the semantic baggage that goes with a (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Tangents (was: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) morality (...) Lets take it back to another example (and no, it's not an analogy). If an escaped murderer breaks into my house, ties up my family and threatens to kill them, but I manage to evade him & get to where my gun is. What should I do? (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) Me either. You're right, there's something a little off with that definition as written. As long as you assume that they felt they were on the side of good and their target was on the side of evil (that's the part that matters, not that GWB (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It terrorism (was: Necessary)? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | (...) One way or another 8?( (...) I don't really look at it as valid - I'm not sure they (Al Qaida, whoever we're fighting...) view it that black & white either. But I would also ask, does it matter which side is "good" and which is "evil"? Does (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) So.... how is that not "might makes right?" Or "Larry makes right" as the case may be. How is this subjective judgement any better than their subjective judgment of us? (...) By my book it only matters what the intentions are of those (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) Well that's the crux of the hole in my argument. Unless it can be shown that it is NOT a subjective judgement (that is, that it's not just a morally relative judgement), we have to accept the outcome that they view themselves as evil and (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | Typo alert! (...) This should say "we have to accept the outcome that they view themselves as good and us as evil as JUST AS VALID as our own finding of the opposite" Too many negatives and I got confused, I guess. Sorry about that, peeps. (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Aren't you saying that it's not the case that you didn't know that what you hadn't said contradicted what he had said wasn't the case? Dave! (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) I've never lived in MA so I have no idea if I am saying that or not. Besides I was up late last nite building and sorting so my brain is a bit mushy yet this morning. (note to Dan: I'm not talking to you and that was a humorous (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) Yes, but not for the reasons you state, I think. The hole is that I don't think morality is necessarily tied to these events. Whether or not it was a moral action doesn't matter to whether it was "necessary" or not, unless your ends are (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) I think we differ on this. You can't separate ends from means. Here's my view If the end was intended to be moral, but it is achieved by immoral actions (immoral in this usage means bad morals, not amoral) it comes out immoral anyway. If the (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) In your defense, though, I would assert that it's not necessary (possible?) to be completely moral. However, in a field of several choices, the greatest "net good" outcome is preferable to less "net good" outcomes. We can be criticized after (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary? —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) Exactly correct-- my point was that I'm not sure I understand what ends you believe were intended. If the end was "to scare the Japanese" rather than "to have Japan surrender", then yes, I agree that the bombing may have been necessary. I just (...) (23 years ago, 17-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | broad brush terrorists (was Re: Hiroshima-Was It Necessary?) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) I could, but I do not agree that terrorism is immoral. It depends on what the fight is against. There are instances where terrorists get broad based support for their actions where they are viewed as fighting against "immoral" regimes. If we (...) (23 years ago, 18-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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