Subject:
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Re: Military Lego Sets
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:57:27 GMT
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Viewed:
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1091 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Alan Findlay writes:
>
> > Since you are knocking down a straw man of your own creation, it's no wonder
> > that you come out best in this exchange. Victor made NO value judgment on
> > the vices or virtues of any of the combatants on the Iberian peninsula. He
> > simply reminded us that the Arabs were there as colonizers, having arrived
> > through armed force. That the colonized would not appreciate the incursion
> > and would fight back should not surprize us -- the pattern has been followed
> > the world over (ie Moguls in India, Ottomans in Hungary, Europeans just
> > about everywhere).
>
> This isn't a straw man--reading the context and understanding
> the implications of the charges made, he's faulting Pedro
> for not invalidating Muslim Spain's relatively peaceful
> and prosperous existence during even the late stages of the
> Reconquista by citing its imposition by arms in 711 AD
The straw man analogy still holds.
Had you first asked Victor a question such as: Are you faulting Pedro for
not invalidating Muslim Spain's relatively peaceful and prosperous existence
during even the late stages of the Reconquista because of its imposition by
arms in AD 711?
... and had Victor replied: Yes.
... then you would have been justified in your response.
But instead of asking Victor the question, you presumed an answer that was
at the extreme (and therefore easily refutable) -- this is the straw man --
and then let fly with all (sarcastic) barrels blazing.
> years earlier). He's also saying this as though the Muslim
> invasion is somehow doing some violence that the Visigoths
> didn't do in the 590s--that the Visigoths were legitimate but
> the Arabs not. That's the firm implication by calling it
> "historical revisionism," and his further (extremely brief)
> comments only seem to bear that reading out. I agree with
> you 100% that there's no functional difference--read my other
> comments.
"He's also saying this..."? I've been following the same thread and reading
the same posts as you, and this section only makes sense if one accepts a
massive amount of presumption on your part. It feels like you are continuing
an argument that you've had with someone else, and you're just plastering
that person's views on Victor's brief statements.
As for the "firm implication", I can only surmise that the term "historical
revisionism" is one of your hot bottons, and again you've plastered someone
else's views on Victor's posts.
As it is, unless (and until) Victor chooses to chime in to either confirm,
deny, or clarify either of our interpretations on his comments, we could end
up expending a lot of bytes on this matter without much benefit to either of us.
>
> I happily apologize if Victor really *meant* to say what you're
> saying, Alan, but it just didn't come across that way at all.
> If it had, I would be saying "hear hear!" instead of "look here!".
>
> best
>
> LFB
This issue of "presumption" is a bit of a 'hot botton' for me. One of the
things that my wife and I often have to work through is that I find myself
being expected to defend answers I didn't give to questions she didn't ask
me. (It's kind of like be asked: "When did you stop beating your wife?" The
question already presumes a lot of ugly stuff as being 'proven'.)
Well, enough blethering from me...
Alan
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) I can see your point. In retrospect, I probably should have confirmed the intent. But hindsight is 20/20. "Historical revisionism" isn't a hot button for me, but when people bandy the charge around blithely I do find it obnoxious. Bearing in (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) This isn't a straw man--reading the context and understanding the implications of the charges made, he's faulting Pedro for not invalidating Muslim Spain's relatively peaceful and prosperous existence during even the late stages of the (...) (23 years ago, 5-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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