Subject:
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Re: Military Lego Sets
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:56:04 GMT
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Viewed:
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1967 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.dear-lego, Victor Knight writes:
> > In lugnet.dear-lego, Pedro Silva writes:
> >
> > > I consider that modern european civilization has a lot to thank the arabs,
> > > who kept civilization during the dark ages. They were beaten off the Iberian
> > > Peninsula because they did not want to fight, and instead they devoted to
> > > science and the arts. On the other hand, my ascendants wanted to wipe'em out
> > > the face of the Earth just because they had the "wrong" religion - and drive
> > > the blokes out of Europe in the process. But I cannot claim that those who
> > > gave me a language and culture were the bad guys... so I like the idea of
> > > not clearly choosing a side.
> >
> > Um did you forget the Arabs came to the Iberian peninsula via war and rape?
> > Talk about one-sided historical revisionism.
>
> If you're trolling, you just caught a live one.
>
> <sarcasm>
>
> Talk about value-laden throwaway lines! Yes, through rape,
> the Muslim armies of Tarikh ibn Zayid conquered the mighty
> and highly moral Visigothic kingdoms in Iberia, which were
> just paragons of high and holy virtues (just don't look
> over there at that noisy pogrom or the other). And it was
> only by brutality that they stayed in power for 780+ years
> (over *six times longer* than the reign of the Visigoths they
> displaced, and longer than the Western Roman Empire existed,
> period). That whole peace and scholarship thing is a sham,
> because the Arabs got there through war!
>
> </sarcasm>
>
> What exactly is Pedro's line a revision *of*? Ever since
> Watt's history in 1967, if not before, that's been the accepted
> scholarly view on Islamic Spain by people who know a heck of a
> lot more about it than most everyone else and have spent
> their lives in the archives and documents. Cordova and
> Gran Granada were a good lot better administratively, in terms of
> religious tolerance, educationally, and even economically than
> anywhere in Europe until the the fifteenth century, when, as
> "war and rape" would have it, they were ejected by the "new"
> Iberians in one of the bloodiest campaigns ever waged on the
> peninsula. Read your history books about just what happened to
> groups like the Jews, who had been protected under the Muslims
> (though not granted equal status), once the Reconquista was
> complete. And, of course, never mind the fate of Muslims who
> fell into Christian hands. NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition,
> which was first created in 1478 with the blessing of Pope Sixtus V
> for the express purpose of "cleansing" Iberia of those pesky
> unbelievers.
>
> And how on Earth is Pedro's view one-sided? How could *anything*
> be more one-sided than an essentialized image of vicious Arab
> thugs and virtuous, moral, peaceful Visigoths (hang on, let me
> finish laughing)? It sounds like you're reading the past with the
> values of the present, which is plausible for 1900 AD but not
> even *slightly* so for 711 AD. It might not even be so for 1492.
>
> One-sided historical revisionism indeed.
>
> best
>
> LFB
>
> Posted to-> .off-topic.debate, where this belongs.
Quite right. It is always nice to listen to the experts, even more when I
like the subject (History + Geography).
Ever been to Portugal, Lindsay? We also have some examples of Islamic Art,
not as imposing as the Alhambra or Medina-al-zahara, but cool as well.
Pedro
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) If you're trolling, you just caught a live one. <sarcasm> Talk about value-laden throwaway lines! Yes, through rape, the Muslim armies of Tarikh ibn Zayid conquered the mighty and highly moral Visigothic kingdoms in Iberia, which were just (...) (25 years ago, 3-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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