Subject:
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Re: Military Lego Sets
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:53:36 GMT
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Viewed:
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958 times
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In lugnet.dear-lego, Victor Knight writes:
> In lugnet.dear-lego, Pedro Silva writes:
>
> > I consider that modern european civilization has a lot to thank the arabs,
> > who kept civilization during the dark ages. They were beaten off the Iberian
> > Peninsula because they did not want to fight, and instead they devoted to
> > science and the arts. On the other hand, my ascendants wanted to wipe'em out
> > the face of the Earth just because they had the "wrong" religion - and drive
> > the blokes out of Europe in the process. But I cannot claim that those who
> > gave me a language and culture were the bad guys... so I like the idea of
> > not clearly choosing a side.
>
> Um did you forget the Arabs came to the Iberian peninsula via war and rape?
> Talk about one-sided historical revisionism.
If you're trolling, you just caught a live one.
<sarcasm>
Talk about value-laden throwaway lines! Yes, through rape,
the Muslim armies of Tarikh ibn Zayid conquered the mighty
and highly moral Visigothic kingdoms in Iberia, which were
just paragons of high and holy virtues (just don't look
over there at that noisy pogrom or the other). And it was
only by brutality that they stayed in power for 780+ years
(over *six times longer* than the reign of the Visigoths they
displaced, and longer than the Western Roman Empire existed,
period). That whole peace and scholarship thing is a sham,
because the Arabs got there through war!
</sarcasm>
What exactly is Pedro's line a revision *of*? Ever since
Watt's history in 1967, if not before, that's been the accepted
scholarly view on Islamic Spain by people who know a heck of a
lot more about it than most everyone else and have spent
their lives in the archives and documents. Cordova and
Gran Granada were a good lot better administratively, in terms of
religious tolerance, educationally, and even economically than
anywhere in Europe until the the fifteenth century, when, as
"war and rape" would have it, they were ejected by the "new"
Iberians in one of the bloodiest campaigns ever waged on the
peninsula. Read your history books about just what happened to
groups like the Jews, who had been protected under the Muslims
(though not granted equal status), once the Reconquista was
complete. And, of course, never mind the fate of Muslims who
fell into Christian hands. NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition,
which was first created in 1478 with the blessing of Pope Sixtus V
for the express purpose of "cleansing" Iberia of those pesky
unbelievers.
And how on Earth is Pedro's view one-sided? How could *anything*
be more one-sided than an essentialized image of vicious Arab
thugs and virtuous, moral, peaceful Visigoths (hang on, let me
finish laughing)? It sounds like you're reading the past with the
values of the present, which is plausible for 1900 AD but not
even *slightly* so for 711 AD. It might not even be so for 1492.
One-sided historical revisionism indeed.
best
LFB
Posted to-> .off-topic.debate, where this belongs.
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Message has 5 Replies:
 | | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) Quite right. It is always nice to listen to the experts, even more when I like the subject (History + Geography). Ever been to Portugal, Lindsay? We also have some examples of Islamic Art, not as imposing as the Alhambra or Medina-al-zahara, (...) (23 years ago, 3-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) Actually and technically, the Inquisition properly so called did not come into existence until 1231, with the constitution Excommunicamus of Pope Gregory IX ‘1478’ was more of an establishment rather that a ‘creation.’ -Richard ‘who had to dig (...) (23 years ago, 3-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) <junk snipped> You can feel sorry for a group that invaded and then was tossed out if you want, but try not to be so biased and sorrowful in your description. (23 years ago, 4-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) <snippage> (...) Lindsay, Since you are knocking down a straw man of your own creation, it's no wonder that you come out best in this exchange. Victor made NO value judgment on the vices or virtues of any of the combatants on the Iberian (...) (23 years ago, 4-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Military Lego Sets
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| (...) Um did you forget the Arabs came to the Iberian peninsula via war and rape? Talk about one-sided historical revisionism. (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.dear-lego)
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