 | | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I think the issue here was my interpretation of your specific problem with Creationism wherein you said: (...) The issue I was attempting to discuss here (if you trace back) is with the 2nd item in your list: "does not make any predictions (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) No, scenario 1 has 1 element: the Creator. The Creator is alone until the creator creates something from literary nothing. The creator and the kernal are the same thing-- the beginning point. -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Okay, so you are saying that some Christians incorporate pagan traditions into their celebrations of Christmas and Easter. (...) That may be. As far as Christmas trees go, I think what has happened is that traditions have been borrowed and (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Are you asking if post hoc reasoning is scientific? No--it's actually one of the hallmarks of pseudoscience, like palmistry or astrology or Creationism. (...) For the umpteenth time in this debate you have presented the falacy known as "the (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I'd say you're accurate-- both statements are (AFIAK) equally valid. Which is precicely why "science" says neither of them, but instead says "I dunno, I won't commit to either option" DaveE (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Are you referencing the "faith" that I place in my ability to observe? Or something more? (...) Like what? (...) I have not personally discovered a method of inquiry that stands up to scrutiny as well as science does. So what do you mean? (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) No, not actually. Scenario 1: a creator and the kernel of the universe (2 elements) Scenario 2: the kernel of the universe itself (1 element) All things being otherwise equal, I would tend to choose the scenario with the fewest assertions. The (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Now here's the statement--faith-based reasoning... Now if you said specifically you reject Christian (or insert whatever deist religion here) faith-based beliefs, that's something I'd not have a problem with, 'cause there's also Scientific (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) You are completely missing or intentionally avoiding the fact that many Xtians practice Xmas and Easter in a manner that precisely involves appropriations of pagan rites -- and not just the dates. You take lengthy arguments, skip over (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) A "fairer" assessment would be that, regarding issues which we cannot verify even in principle, science makes no statement. Similarly, some people (myself included) might say that, since we have no basis for making a determination, it is (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Question is, is it still "scientific"? I'd still want to say yes. (...) Alright, fine. Switch the example then (we can play this game for a while yet to come). Suppose we *don't* know the chemical makeup of Halley's Comet, because it gets (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I didn't say anything about science. Science is not the lone venue for evidence. Law, for instance, depends on evidence. In fact, I'd say that all plausibly reasoned decision making proceses have a role for evidence. Chris (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) No, it's a personal choice. It is also a rejection of faith-based beliefs. What exactly is wrong with you, John? -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Am I *that* transparent? :-) So regarding events prior to the Big Bang, all we have are opinions which may or may not be based upon religion. To say that a Creator started it all or to say that it all just happened are equally neutral. Would (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) But Chris, if nothing else, I think we all have ageed that science cannot speak to such matters, so your requiring evidence to support a belief in God is flawed reasoning. -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Know Thy Python (was: Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism)
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(...) If, for no other reason, you have to respect a man who knows his Python.... <okay, I just cracked *myself* up with that one!> -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) *CRASH*!!! Nobody expects the Taxonomic Scale Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and anal retentiveness.....oo...ooo....two chief weapons are surprise, anal retentiveness, and a ruthless devotion to splitting scales....three! (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) In an arena of two competing theories, the one that is able to make testable predictions is stronger than and therefore preferable to the one that is not so able. If the theory does not make testable predictions, you can't really perform (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) those times of year. The shortest day of the year and the equinox are natural times for celebrations. Early Christians may have decided to celebrate the coming of their savior at the same time as pagans were celebrating whatever they (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I know this ever-so-rarely ever happens, but I think I'm going to switch gears and join your team on this one, based on something that struck me after writing this post: (URL) that the Biblical Creation story *does* have evidence to support (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Once again I have to reiterate--there are many knowledgable and well learned folks partaking in these debates. Thanks for the intriguing posts. I uphold a system in which Larry can believe what he chooses to believe, as I uphold a system in (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Absolutely. If the universe is cyclic, then simply everything collapsed back into as small of a point as possible until the big bang was triggered. An interesting question would be if the physical laws of the universe change from one (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) [note: I have no idea what the "Christian Churches of God" are or what they may or may not believe in addition to the stuff referenced below (it wouldn't surprise me to discover they were a white supremacist christian identity movement, many (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I too wonder about this. I've heard that bandied about for years, but haven't seen any real accounts of it. I would like to read an account of this occurance. Chris (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Hasn't it ever been "shared" with you before? I don't believe in any god because there is not a reasonable body of evidence to support such belief. When you've been deeply indoctrinated, or when the Lord has whispered into your heart, you (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Also, fish aren't fish. There is no class, subclass, order, family, genus, or species known as "fish." What we know colloquially as fish are in fact four (maybe five now) classes of vertebrates that happen to all share certain features that (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Where did you read that this was an indictment of your intentions regarding cultures? I was making a general point about the problems with the terminology *that is used in the field*, and you're accusing me of something totally out of left (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) There are actual groups of people for lack of a better term, we'll call a tribe, who having no technology beyond stone tool making and limited agriculture fall into a social development known as the Stone Age. These cultures have been having (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) There are actual groups of people for lack of a better term, we'll call a tribe, who having no technology beyond stone tool making and limited agriculture fall into a social development known as the Stone Age. These cultures have been having (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) It is not possible to meaningfully talk about events prior to the big bang (1) at this time. Period. With or without religion. (except in the negative sense of saying that we can't talk about them as we have no frame of reference and no way to (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) And you in turn would be mistaken to think I had done so. I've studied the whole bible (and read a fair bit elsewhence) not just that one particular OT book. It's just that Job sums up your god quite nicely for me. Most of the rest is smoke or (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) The big problem with it has little to do with the "emotional distress" it supposedly places on people (I said nothing about this, so I'm not sure where you got it from). It has to do with the fallacious logic that the creation of this linear (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Would you say that it is possible to talk about events prior to the big bang without referring to religion? -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) His intentions are not lost on me, but I'd rather let him be hoisted by his own petard. He can impugn his character much better than I ever could. -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I choose the *perception* that He is a tinpot dictator of a god, which is a misperception. God is unchanging, and God's true nature was revealed by Jesus life and teachings. Since that nature is that of a loving and just God, this is how I (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I don't think what makes a theory scientific is as hard and fast as some would like to indicate. Does it have to "helpful" to be scientific? Why would it have to? (...) Basically, Creationist Theories don't fit the known evidence. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Of course a fish is still a fish. I mean, what else would it be? If you are trying to state (but not quite saying it) that a fish can never evolve into another species, that's easy to answer: yes it can. I think you are really trying to say it (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I judge the nature of your god by the evidence presented. The ends do not justify the means, and there is no possible justification for your god's persistent torture of Job. If the bible is revealed truth, your god isn't a very good (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Wrong! You miss the point. The author of Job *doesn't* know the true nature of God. I happen to appreciate the honesty of the Biblical redactors to include the book of Job. The revelation of the nature God to the Israelites was a *process*, (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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