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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > First explain to me the pagan rites to which you are referring, because I
> > really don't know what you're talking about.
> At a glance this looks like a good source for what I am talking about in
> terms of pagan rites: http://logon.org/english/s/p235.html
I don't deny that there may have been pagan rites being being celebrated during
those times of year. The shortest day of the year and the equinox are natural
times for celebrations. Early Christians may have decided to celebrate the
coming of their savior at the same time as pagans were celebrating whatever
they celebrated and effectively absconded the pagans, but they wouldn't have
stolen their practices, merely "their" day. And in fairness, there is logic to
their decision, as I mentioned before, to choose the light with the shortest
amount of light to celebrate the coming of the light of the world.
But Jesus' resurrection did indeed occur during the Passover weekend.
<snip>
> My reading of the bible is that you are under the laws of Moses because
> that's the law -- period.
Yes and no. See below.
> You are also saved by grace because man is seen
> as incapable of perfection (lucky you).
You, too. Or are you implying that you *are* perfect or could be so?
> Maybe these strict interpretations
> of biblical texts are too harsh, but then again I am not sure it's supposed
> to be easy. And anyway, I am not an Xtian -- but if I were, I'd at least be
> serious about it and not just a Sunday morning, wishy-washy, "under grace"
> Xtian.
How would you define a "serious" Christian?
> from the Book of Mark:
> 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you
> hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but
> their heart is far from me.
> 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the
> commandments of men.
> 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,
> as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
> 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that
> ye may keep your own tradition.
> 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth
> father or mother, let him die the death:
> 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban,
> that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he
> shall be free.
> 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
> 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye
> have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
First of all, why not choose a translation that is easier to understand?
You stopped at 13; continue to 14 and 15:
Then he called the crowd again and said to them, "Listen to me, everyone, and
understand. There is nothing outside of a person that can defile him by going
into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles him."
That is in DIRECT contradiction to the Pharisaic interpretation of the Law.
The *understanding* of the Law at that time had become a stumbling block to the
Jews. They had become so preoccupied with following the law that they lost
sight of the *purpose* of the Law.
> If the above is supposed to be Jesus repudiating Mosaic law, I must be
> reading it all wrong.
You are. Jesus was all about how we treat one another. The *interpretation*
of the Law during that time was all about loving the Law. Basically Jesus was
saying "How can you claim to love God by adhering to the Law and at the same
time hate one another?" Jesus said "Whatsoever you do to the least of my
children, that you do unto me."
Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing now because I'm lazy and don't have a lot of time
today) "the law says that you shall not commit adultery. But I say even if you
lust after another in your heart you are guilty of adultery."
When a mob had found a women guilty of adultery, they were about to stone her
to death (as required by the Law) and they ask Jesus what he would do in this
situation. He said, fine, go ahead, but he who is without sin-- let him cast
the first stone. After all of her accusers leave, Jesus, who alone would be
fit to judge her, condemns her not as well.
Jesus hasn't abolished the Law so much as he's provided the correct
interpretation of it. In fact, he sums up the Law here: "Here is a new
commandment that I give unto you: love one another, as I have loved you."
Ironically, Jesus is put to death for breaking the Law, the First Commandment.
The incarnation of God being put to death by men for blasphemy against God.
That's rich!
> As I stated elsewhere: I don't think you know what you believe or why you
> believe it. I am still waiting to see proof to the contrary. And as usual,
> your degree of convenient ignorance is staggering (half questions?
> puh-leaze!). How can you believe so much knowing so little? Or is that the
> point? Ignorance is bliss, eh John?
Well, I suppose you'd know. I find your ad hominems of my ignorance a little
amusing since it appears that you are the one who is ignorant WRT to this topic.
-John
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: slight
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| (...) You are completely missing or intentionally avoiding the fact that many Xtians practice Xmas and Easter in a manner that precisely involves appropriations of pagan rites -- and not just the dates. You take lengthy arguments, skip over (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: slight
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| (...) [note: I have no idea what the "Christian Churches of God" are or what they may or may not believe in addition to the stuff referenced below (it wouldn't surprise me to discover they were a white supremacist christian identity movement, many (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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