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(...) This really bugged me about all the links Larry sent. They all claimed that there was some sort of "loophole" if you assume that the host has the option to either: - reveal the door you picked, showing a goat (in which case, yes, it's 50/50) - (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) The host does cheat: he always reveals a losing door. That's part of the basic premise. (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Which is why those are left out: there never enter the scenario. Only those that would actually happen are "invoked". And the simulator supports my conclusions. Only if the host "cheats" does the 2/3 option become statistically correct. :-) (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Actually, I explained (albeit briefly) why this isn't correct. You see, you now have 2 listings for "Choose 1, Prize 1", "Coose 2, Prize 2", and "Choose 3, Prize 3", when each deserves *equal* probability to each other possibility, like (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Got it... Goes into a fairly comprehensible walk-thru, but the point that makes it obvious (as stated) is: " Imagine that there were a million doors. Also, after you have chosen your door; Monty opens all but one of the remaining doors, (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) You're also being incompletely rigorous. :) If you want to do an "all possible outcomes" probability check, you have to add in all the 'door revealed=prize' options which exist for the sake of the probabilities involved, but are never invoked (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Actually, it supports the 50/50. Host will always offers regardless of whether you chose correctly or not (basic premise - choose the "host does not know"): simulator runs 50/50. If it's a screw you scenario, then yes, you switch, but I (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Liking it or not is irrelevant. The probabilities are what they are. And the answer is still 2/3 if you switch, given the premises. No matter whether you like it or not. Go to the site I gave you and read what is written there. (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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In lugnet.off-topic.geek, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> (...) So, like others suggest about knowing that one of the marbles is red, the chance that the other one is red... the one that we know becomes basically irrelevant to the chance--there (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) I think your analysis is incorrect, precisely because you did *not* list all outcomes. Choose Prize Door Revealed Possible choices 1 1 2 Stay (win). Switch (lose). 1 1 3 Stay (win). Switch (lose). 1 2 3 Stay (lose). Switch (win). 1 3 2 Stay (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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Dave, you rock. I am finally convinced. :) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) For any still not getting this one (it's tricky!) here's another way to analyze the problem. List all outcomes: Prize Choice Door Revealed Stay or Switch? 1 1 2 stay! 1 2 3 switch! 1 3 2 switch! 2 1 3 switch! 2 2 1 stay! 2 3 1 switch! 3 1 2 (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) See the link I posted and follow some of the links it has. You are in good company, lots of mathemeticians came to the same conclusion. (and roasted Marilyn Vos Savant about it at the time it first got a lot of publicity) That was before they (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Inasmuch as you get to pick a second time, the odds are 50/50. If you did not get to pick a second time, the odds would be 1/3, not 1/2. Of course, this is leaving out the poker aspect: if your initial pick was incorrect, would they even offer (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Nope. The analysis that I have seen that argues for a different outcome than 1/2 has to do with the fact that you're being (or so it is argued) conveyed more information than it seems. That is, they KNOW which door is right, and by showing you (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) I already proved that I should stay out of this... but. When you had 3 doors to pick from, it was 1/3 that whatever door you choose is the correct one. However, after opening one of the doors you didn't pick (assuming the host is not opening (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Actually, there's a 2/3 chance that it's behind door Z! A very sneaky problem, in fact. It was shown to us in high school as the subject of a very minor controversy. After being published as "2/3 chance" in a math publication, some college (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) I think the two answers depend on a more accurate statement of the problem. If the problem is stated that you pick two marbles, and given that the first one you pick is red, what is the chance the second one is red, then order matters, and the (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) doh, you're right :) Also, I was calculating the chance of getting 2 red marbles, in general, not checking the chance given the first one was red... :) That's what you get when you do an experiment, and have an expected solution in your (...) (22 years ago, 4-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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In lugnet.off-topic.geek, Dave Schuler writes: <snip> (...) I'd say that me drawing a red one is 1 in 3, and you drawing a red one is one in 3 so the chances are for us to draw a red at the same time is 1 in 9. The chances to draw a blue one at the (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) I don't quite get why this works-- if you're doing rand($#bag), won't that always pick r, r, or w for the 1st value? Hence, theoretically, you could pick "wb", which isn't in your sample set... on the other hand, you're increasing the chance (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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In lugnet.off-topic.geek, David Eaton writes: <snip> (...) I'd say 1 in 2, or 50 percent, but maybe I'm missing something. Good question though. Dave K (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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In lugnet.off-topic.geek, Ross Crawford writes: <snip> (...) I like driving home from work--gives me time to think about stuff... And after reading all the great replies, I'm going to propose the following solution: If you have a bag with 4 marbles, (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Your friend has assumed that there is a difference between the reds, and you know which one you have seen in your hand. As there is no information in the original problem to substantiate this assumption, you have to assume it's not the case, (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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In lugnet.off-topic.geek, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) Thanks Larry, I'll add it to the rationale. I failed gr. 12 advanced math once--was too busy being the editor of the yearbook that particular year (and playing cards in the cafeteria) It (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Wow! You wrote a program! Thanks Dan! Again I'm impressed with the knowledge and skills of those that partake in LUGNET! Adding to my case, Dave K (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) The original question: 4 marbles in a bag, 2 are red, one is white, one is blue You reach into the bag and grab 2 of them. You see that one of the marbles in your hand is red. What is the chance (either fraction or percent) that the other (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Yep, you're right, your friend is wrong. The problem is that you *wouldn't* count "r(2) r(1)" if order didn't matter. But then again, the thing he's forgetting is that if you don't count "r(2) r(1)", then you also CAN'T count *both* "r(1) b" (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Hmm... I just thought of something. Are there two separate questions at work here? Question 1: Having drawn two marbles from a bag of two red, one white, and one blue marbles, what are the odds that the two you have drawn are both red? (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) I think he's wrong because he's trying to reason about partial knowledge, and that always causes problems. Look at it as a draw without replacement instead. The order you reveal things doesn't influence outcomes, they were what they were. you (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) My knowledge of stats gives me less than 1 in one zillion chance of answering any random stats question correctly, but I likewise agree: The essential question is "If you reach into a bag with a red, a white, and a blue marble, then what are (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) Here's his rationale, hopefully explained more fully (but I still think it's not quite kosher...) The time of the event--you grabbed 2 marbles there are 6 possible combinations in your hand r(1) r(2) r(1) b r(1) w r(2) b r(2) w b w those are (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) I'm not a stats person, but I agree with your friend. r(2) r(1) is the same as r(1) r(2), because order doesn't matter. If it does, then you end up with more combos (w r(2), etc)... -- that's what I was going to say. But, I decided to run a (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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(...) <long snip> you're right, in both senses. Your logic for the first solution is valid, and your identification of his error in the second solution (which would lead to the same answer) is also correct. It is, indeed, 33% Adrian -- (URL) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | math question (or pattern... whatever...)
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k, here's something that came across my desk... you have a bag with 4 marbles in it. 2 of the marbles are red 1 marble is white 1 marble is blue you reach in and grab 2 random marbles you open up your hand a bit to only see the colour of one of (...) (22 years ago, 3-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: PreCS MOC
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(...) One day I hope to be Commodore 128th Fleet... or Atari 800. Chris <>< Remembering his friends Adam computer *snicker*... daisy wheel printer....rofl. (22 years ago, 26-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: How would you move a planet?
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How to move a planet? Simple, sing some Whitney Houston or some Celine Dion, if that doesn't work, Neil Diamond will move even the most solid audience. And I will always love yoooooouuu...uuu..... I will always... love yOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuu..... (...) (22 years ago, 26-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: PreCS MOC
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(...) 10 Print "SYNTAX ERROR" 20 GOTO 10 ;) (22 years ago, 25-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: Lego WAP Sites??
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(...) There's www.bricksinmypocket.org - and there may be a few things in the works soon, since a few of us have recently aquired sidekicks :) I have to say, most of the sites look pretty good on it too! (URL) Boger www.peeron.com (22 years ago, 20-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Lego WAP Sites??
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Does anyone know of any good (or any) wireless web (WAP) sites having to do with Lego? I'm looking for some kind of price list kind of thing. Kind of like Lugnet's set reference without the pictures. Is there anything like that out there? Thanks (...) (22 years ago, 20-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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