 | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | (...) Oh, don't flatter yourself....like it wasn't obvious! While I found your tale extremely humorous - (which is bad because I just got out of the ICU due to amonia (pneumonia), my ribs are killing me!! I laughed my @$$ off - that's right, I now (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal
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| | | | | (...) Thank you, Hannibal. (...) You raise good points, Bill, but don't fall into the trap of trying to prove anything about Christ or God, at least to seasoned debaters such as Lar et al. They will eat you for lunch. But that's okay, because we (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | (...) Highlight above, "unknown". (...) I would argue that neither you nor Lar can prove something to the other. Neither of your arguments shall have bearing on the other. Lar won't accept your evidence, and you won't accept his argument that he (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Given your assumption, I would certainly agree that the infinite is incomprehensible by the finite. (...) Don't put yourselves (as Christians) down; intellectuals and scientists, I imagine, would believe through Faith just like any other (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I wouldn't, at least not completely. Finite systems can model infinity, categorise it, draw meaningful conclusions about it, etc. They can even simulate things related to some parts of it. I "comprehend" infinity. But most of these infinities (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I agree there. The struggle, if you will, between Science and Christianity is that very drive for emperical evidence to back something up (continuing to play the assumption made by John, even though I believe that God does exist and he is the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Er, I think you mean "cannot be EXPLAINED naturally". Proven naturally has no meaning. And I'd add "and there is no hope of ever doing so" here, else you're toast. (...) Add "verifiable" here, twice, else you're toast. (...) Because without (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, it is still possible for a god to have had a tangible effect, in that it is possible that our universe is just an incredibly good simulation running in another universe. Then "god" would be the programmer who wrote the simulation... Of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | "Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:G4unI7.76u@lugnet.com... (...) My misteak (is that how you spell it? ;o) ), you're right. (...) pick (...) conservation (...) Agreed. (...) me) (...) ...where I say a potential (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) There's a difference, though, between understanding something and proving it exists. Even if a thing is infinite, if it has any perceptible interaction in the universe it can (in theory, at least) be proven to exist, even if we have no hope of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | "Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4uqp9.HKB@lugnet.com... (...) proving (...) exist, (...) And I believe that God can, in the form of his interaction here on earth being attributed to him properly. I just haven't studied the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) That's fine on a personal level, but you have to recognize that faith, evidence(1), and personal experience will never prove His existence to anoter person, as long as that person is objective and subjects your assertions to critical analysis. (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | "Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4urs9.L3A@lugnet.com... (...) Yep, I agree. Each individual has to come to this realization for himself or herself. Until its personal, no amount of convincing really helps. It may prompt them (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) ?? In the way the LUGNet trademark device has beauty? That is, it's logically inconsistent, but pretty, in a decorative way? This and something David Low said got me thinking. Is it possible that all or part of the intellectual attractiveness (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Sorry guys - saying that belief in God requires a leap of faith - what you're saying in essence - is exactly what Kant said. God is, however, not removed from reality. Belief in God can indeed be arrived at through rational considerations - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | Jon, Good points :-) I just haven't arrived at a rational explanation yet, besides reading some philosophers for class - and those easily get debunked if you think hard enough. Though I like C.S. Lewis, he doesn't seem that debunkable, but I haven't (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Tim - What do you believe? Whether or not you have a 'rational' explaination... -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) What are you trying to do? Are you the gate keeper of heaven (or hell)? Selçuk (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Hardly. In the few minutes I have each day to jump into the fray, I've noticed a distinct tendency of many to jab at Christianity, without ever stating their own positions. This morning (my local time), I've merely asked a few of the posters (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | "Selçuk Göre" <ssgore@superonline.com> wrote in message news:3A27D64E.2969F5...ine.com... (...) He's just curious, really. I'm a Christian, by believing in the teachings of Christ in the Bible. I share the same sentiments on how flawed (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Oh, Ok. I must have missed Bill's "flaws". Can you point the way for me? (what posting?) Or perhaps state your sentiments? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I have the sense that Bill's view of "flawed 'Christianity'" does not mean that Christianity itself is flawed, but rather that people who alleged to follow Christianity (conquistodores et al) were flawed. Is that what you were getting at, Tim? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yep! Wow, Dave! you're right there when I need ya. I just got posting not two seconds ago referring to you. ...and now I'm off, got stuff to do. This looks pretty interesting though :) -Tim (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | "Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wFFH.25F@lugnet.com... (...) and (...) Maybe Bill didn't outline them all here, but I'm still searching, here's the little bit I found: (URL) last sentence of Bill's first paragraph) Maybe (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) That's it exactly, and it applies pretty much to any belief system. That is, the system's truth or falsehood isn't determined by the zaniness or non-zaniness of its supporters. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) That's why there are still Marxists and Communists in the world! (And, some would argue, Greens and Libertarians.) best LFB (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | <snipped even more capriciously than usual!> (...) I agree. Those Marx brothers were pretty zany all right. Yet their belief system (the right to wear silly hats, have dark eyebrows, wave cigars leeringly at matronly women, and honk a large bicycle (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Enduring Marxism —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It's amazing to think that some of their film work is almost 70 years old! Duck Soup, in its day, was deemed so volatile that Il Duce banned its screening in Italy for several years, and its madcap anti-war sentiment was echoed fully 40 years (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) "It must be a guy thing"??? I'm thinking that you're actually more comfortable with the response Dave! provided...?? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | "Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wt23.J1K@lugnet.com... (...) DOH! The third paragraph is what I think I meant to say. "I am more offended than you by what I see in Christendom." :o) -- Tim Courtney - tim@zacktron.com (URL) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Ah. I suppose that's the beauty of God - that He entrusts His perfect plan into the hands of imperfect people - yet it will not fail. :-) -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Low
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| | | | | | | | (...) This is what perplexes me about fundamentalist religion. Given that God is infinite and transcendent, how can any human claim to have perfect or privileged knowledge of God? How can anyone of faith actually be sure that he or she has found the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | (...) Idunno, my mother was a Darwinfish-carrying physical anthropologist who believed in God. Bruce (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) No trap, I was laying one, and it worked. I'm a big eater, he couldn't handle my lunch. Besides, I was using a martial arts/fencing/military tactic of realizing a perceived weakness, telegraphing it to lure the opponent and then using it to my (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) It was whipped up on the spur of the moment. I'm glad it amused, and not too worried if it wasn't perfect. Nobody is perfect, you know, but some of us take comfort in being Forgiven, and some of us take comfort in improving ourselves. I know (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Big Lar caught in his own trap (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) I presume, confidently, that you refer to those who improve ourselves. Thanx, I'm glad you prefer my sort. :) One doesn't preclude the other. I believe I have been forgiven of quite a lot, but I also strive to continuously improve myself. This (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) I don't have any reason to doubt that Jesus the man existed, and I don't think that's what Larry's suggesting, either. And I've heard the witness-evidence-tha...p-in-court argument before. Similarly, I've heard it asked why we (skeptics and/or (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) I'm not Larry, but I have disdain for self-delusion in general. Don't you? Obviously we disagree about whether Christianity is delusion, but I'm not getting why you would possibly assert that someone's disdain for a particular bit of (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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