Subject:
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Re: The War That Never Ends
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:01:40 GMT
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Viewed:
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432 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote:
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Of course, the threat to the United States was real then, unlike Dubya’s
trumped-up bull.
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And the enemy was actually defeatable, unlike now. Also, I don’t see that
Jefferson limited citizens rights during this period; but if I am in error I
stand ready to be educated of that fact.
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Well, no, the Barbary Pirates were like cockroachs. They hung around for quite
some time despite numerous people trying to wipe them out. Once the Pax
Brittanica began they were finally surpressed (another parallel for your example
with the current “Pax” Americana, but again, at least it was concerning a
demonstrable threat).
As to Jefferson limiting rights, yes and no. Not in theory, but in practice he
was the ultimate denier of citizen rights. I suppose one can argue that slaves
were not citizens, or that slavery was a problem that Jefferson could not solve
by himself, but nevertheless, he personally held slaves. An odd contradition,
to be sure.
But on the level that you are refering to, I’m not aware of any restrictions
beyond, perhaps, shipping.
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I am not wholly unwilling to make some compromises in the face of actual
threat, provided those compromises are reasonable and something like martial
law must be declared to defeat the enemy. No such conditions of that kind
exist today. The measures under consideration are far too extreme to match up
with anything like the idea of being reasonable.
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I’m willing to go through airport security, but I tell you, yesterday was pure
hell. SIG alert on the 60 freeway ate up over an hour of time cushion in
getting my son to LAX. I got past the 1st checkpoint without a ticket, and then
the 2nd security check without a pass when I asked if it was physically possible
to go through the line to get one and then get my son on board in time (now done
to 20 minutes before takeoff - the answer was no, of course). The third and
final checkpoint, my watch set off the alarm, and I had to be scanned repeatedly
(my belt buckle - geez, I thought I was going to have to strip, and the clock
was ticking). My son finally got on five minutes before takeoff.
But Ashcroft is a totalitarian-wannabe. At some point we simply become what we
condemn in other nations. Handing over your rights spinelessly in the name of
“security” has its own set of dangers.
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Anyway, I’d rather argue the fine points of piracy, old and new, than
continue against the imprecise arguments of my opponent, Mr. Neal...
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. I wonder about
belonging to any political party (currently a Green, but I’ve been a Whig, a
Mug-Wump, a Bullmoose, and a Free Silver - though whether any of those existed
at the time I registered as such, I have no idea - in addition to a democrat and
a libertarian). You can end up in this us-vs-them mentality where you get this
odd idea that your side can do no wrong, and the other can do no right. It
blinds you to your own side’s faults. Now, whether John plays devil’s advocate,
or actually believes everything he writes, I don’t know. Trusting everything
Bush (or any politician) says contrary of the evidence just because he
represents your political viewpoint is a dangerous self-deception.
-->Bruce<--
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: The War That Never Ends
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote (...) I will grant that the threat isn't demonstrable, except of course, the carnage perpetrated on 9-11. The problem is that the potential threat is so horrific that if it isn't pre-emptively (...) (21 years ago, 3-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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| (...) And the enemy was actually defeatable, unlike now. Also, I don't see that Jefferson limited citizens rights during this period; but if I am in error I stand ready to be educated of that fact. I am not wholly unwilling to make some compromises (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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