Subject:
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Re: The War That Never Ends
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 2 Aug 2003 14:57:37 GMT
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Viewed:
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451 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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Further, and as I have mentioned elsewhere, the overthrow of SH is a warning
to other tinpot dictators who might be considering harboring terrorists. We
have shown that we aren’t afraid to take action against such scum. Again,
this denies the pukes places to organize, train, etc.
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There is zero proof Iraq was harboring anyone plotting moves against the U.S.
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http://www.efreedomnews.com/news%20archive/iraq/specialreportwaroniraq/W53IraqTerrorism.htm
http://spiritoftruth.org.nz/iraqlinks.htm
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AQ, in particular, is supra-national. Cells may exist in as many as 60
countries including the U.S. Are we going to go after them all, John?
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Certainly some. And convince and assist the other countries to purge them by
themselves.
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Now you tell me what specific civil liberties you have had to sacrifice
as a result of the Bush administration.
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Freedom from being summarily investigated and databased.
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Really? When were you summarily investigated and databased?
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People are being
denied the right to travel by air on the flimsiest pretexts.
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Cites please.
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There is
potential to be expatriated and denied basically all of my rights, which has
happened to some americans already.
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Who have been found to have aided and abated our enemy.
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Anyway, you are trying to use specific anecdotal evidence as somehow having a
bearing on my point overall. Just because they have nothing on me doesn’t
mean that the rights of others are not being denied. We know the rights of
others are being denied. Everyone else on this board seems to agree on that
point -- which is like saying that they are aware of this facet of current
political reality. Are you disagreeing?
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But let’s at least be honest here-- we are talking about people who in all
liklihood are either terrorists or have aided terrorists against the United
States.
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It is no wonder that liberties get curtailed in times of war
(always have), and when peace is restored, so are the liberties.
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That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what is under consideration --
this war against terrorism is not expected to end probably in my lifetime.
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That’s hopefully a long time:-) Nobody knows for certain what will happen in 5
years much less 50.
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May I take the “war on drugs” as a sign of the inability to stop a problem
emanating from a variety of sources? You part ways with reality to justify
your political leanings, John.
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I think that the outcome of the “war on drugs” would have been substantially
different if we had committed the resources that we did to Iraq to ending it.
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No, because SH failed to provide evidence to the inspectors that he had
destroyed his WMD.
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I didn’t say he there may not have been reasons, John. I am citing from
things Shrub is known to have said, statements he knew to be false when he
made them. False statements that the press made but small murmerings about,
thereby allowing the statements to operate as unchallenged propaganda to
those americans making time only for soundbites.
By trying to sidestep the pointedly false statements made by Shrub, you are
doing the exact same thing.
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That wasn’t my question. Again: Do you think FDR abhorred the US
Constitution?
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I haven’t spent a lot of time recently studying the activities of a President
many years before my time, but if you want a yes or no answer I think my
answer must be yes. If memory serves, there is at a minimum the famous court
packing thing to consider amongst many other things. I am thinking that FICA
was also passed under his watch, and I oppose it as well. I suppose the many
socialist style programs passed during FDR’s stint are pretty abominable
also.
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I don’t think you would be able to find anyone who would agree with you
(including, if possible, FDR himself). Everything he did was what he thought
necessary to defend our Constitution. Now, you may not agree with his actions,
but he certainly didn’t abhor the Constitution. I’m starting to sound like a
broken record even to myself, but, in the real world, sometimes compromises
need to be made. Events, political POVs, public opinion all ebb and flow
through time, but the Constitution remains (with the obvious exceptions to
admendments). In stressful times we may deviate from the ideal, but we never
loose sight of that ideal. So we do what needs to be done so that we may live
under the ideal once again.
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BTW, some of this stuff is not strictly unconstitutional, mainly just the way
the taxing powers have been abused. The rest could probably be legislated
legitimately at a local or state level if not a federal level.
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I am not against taxes; I would simply LOVE to see the despicable IRS (talk
about your violation of rights!) dissolve tomorrow and a flat tax or VAT
installed. As for social programs, I am all in favor of local gov’ts doing what
they see fit-- or simply having local charity groups address the problems.
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In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan: “There you go again!” See? All you
can do is rip everyone in your ivory tower. It’s old.
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A problem being old has nothing to do with anything. If caring about the
power of the people to effectively participate in government is to be
considered old, then I must declare that “everything old is new again!”
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I meant your constant ranting is old. Instead of simply pointing out problems
everywhere (which is in many cases stating the obvious), let’s discuss
solutions.
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The scary part is that you probably really do have faith in the complete
farce otherwise known as the U.N. If those emasculated nincompoops had
done their jobs in the first place, we wouldn’t have had to do it for them.
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To the contrary, I don’t care whether they could have done the job or not --
Iraq was not a U.S. specific problem so I was happy to let it drag on
forever.
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Exactly. And pukes like SH bank on that attitude, all the while clandestinely
developing WMD programs. The problem is that it would have become our problem
later if not sooner.
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Plus, the use of the U.N. forces and money would have kept the whole
shebang off the U.S. taxpayers backs.
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Please. We bankroll the sham anyway (we, and of course, Jane with Ted’s $$$;-)
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I think even Shrub is now regretting
those harsh words against the U.N. -- will he now get the backing of those he
claimed were irrelevant to his cause? Shrub’s extreme ignorance on foreign
affairs is going to cost us and our children a lot of $$$.
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Ha! If it’s $$$ you are worried about, imagine the cost of a nuclear detonation
on Wall Street. You have no concept of the stakes involved!
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Just as a side note, the very guys in D.C. today clamoring for Saddam’s blood
are the very guys that profited from Saddam’s cruelty for years. You connect
the dots. Yeah, they’re going to capture Saddam alive and allow him to stand
trial -- not bloody likely.
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Life is messy. Sometimes you side with a Stalin to battle a Hitler. But
eventually, you battle the Stalin as well. Nobody gives a rat’s ass about SH.
JOHN
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: The War That Never Ends
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| (...) Bully, you mean? (...) Lead article in this month's Reason: (URL) both the cite request for loss of privacy and the cite request for denial of right to travel. Note that now that the feds took over, there no longer is the valid defence of "try (...) (21 years ago, 3-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
| | | Re: The War That Never Ends
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| (...) I don't have any cites, but my mom is sure wondering if there's any connection between here peacefull war protests and the fact that everytime she goes though airport security she gets the "full treatment". I'm personally not convinced, but (...) (21 years ago, 4-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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| (...) There is zero proof Iraq was harboring anyone plotting moves against the U.S. AQ, in particular, is supra-national. Cells may exist in as many as 60 countries including the U.S. Are we going to go after them all, John? (...) Freedom from being (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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