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"The threat is still real because neither invading Afghanistan nor Iraq had much to do with Al-Qaeda, which is itself a supra-national entity largely financed from ***** ******." I'm sorry, but that line had to be censored... the truth is (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Here is one for the conspiracy theorists: what if we know full well that SA is behind al-Qaeda but attacking her is out of the question (seeing as how she is supposed to be our ally, but we attacked Iraq instead as a sort of veiled threat to (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Why not just go after the Saudis *first*? And why not do it economically instead of via unwarranted war? Arrange our affairs to break our dependence on foreign oil and voila.(1) (Oil is too valuable to burn in cars, it needs to be saved to (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Well, we could open an exception for cars carrying large amounts of ABS to happy consumers' homes... ;-) Pedro (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) It is my understanding that the money for AQ is known to come from SA, it is not conjecture at this point (if it ever was). The question is: does the SA govt. condone or even know about this activity? Obviously, attacking SA is out of the (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Bush & Co think so. I think that they are correct. We shall see... (...) That's it! Isn't this the entire crux of the issue? How does a free and open society protect itself while respecting civil rights? The answer and dirty little secret is (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) John, as an outsider, this is not convincing. Half the people you are worried about today were your allies a few years ago! What has changed to ensure the torturers and murderers the USA is nurturing today won't kick you in the ass in 10 years (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Uh, the stomach to defend the U.S. Constitution, John?! I'm sorry, but I think at least some of us are willing to do that and also have the stomach for it. Freedom is not the same as perfect safety. I can live with imperfect safety if I can (...) (21 years ago, 31-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) What is your definition of "imperfect safety"? As long as other people are killed by terrorists and I can still have my freedom, I can live with imperfect safety. Well what if you were in one of those towers? Tell me how you can live through (...) (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Please explain with great specificity how the twin invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq have made us safer from terrorism. Of course, keep in my mind that there is much intelligence claiming the exact opposite of your probably false assertion (...) (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Newsbits: (was Re: The War etc)
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Conflict 'may have driven Muslims into arms of al-Qa'ida' (URL) The war to topple Saddam Hussein may have damaged the campaign against international terrorism by driving Muslims into the arms of al-Qa'ida, an all-party committee of MPs said (...) (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Well, there you have it. There's nothing like an open mind, and yours is nothing like it! But to answer anyway: In both Iraq and Afganistan, terrorists were allowed safe haven to train and plot their attacks. By eliminating the governments who (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: (was Re: The War etc)
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(...) ??? Or it may not have. (...) ??? Or they may not have that. (...) ??? Or it might not have. (...) How exactly were they looking to draw their conclusions? This article is basically opinion. (...) Thank you for the warning, Doctor Spin. JOHN (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) There is zero proof Iraq was harboring anyone plotting moves against the U.S. AQ, in particular, is supra-national. Cells may exist in as many as 60 countries including the U.S. Are we going to go after them all, John? (...) Freedom from being (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) (URL) AQ, in particular, is supra-national. Cells may exist in as many as 60 (...) Certainly some. And convince and assist the other countries to purge them by themselves. (...) Really? When were you summarily investigated and databased? (...) (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Bad example. How did Thomas Jefferson deal with stateless terrorists? He increased the power of centralized government, raised a navy, and went to war. The Barbary Pirates (ummmm specifically the Corsairs of Tripoli) were seizing ships and (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: Oops. Sorry (I hate it when folks don't use hyperlinks:-p) (2 URLs) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You do realize that much of that stuff is predicated on the very claims that the White House made that are now being contested, right? I would think it's a debate error to claim as fact, or even as support, the very things being questioned. To (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) And the enemy was actually defeatable, unlike now. Also, I don't see that Jefferson limited citizens rights during this period; but if I am in error I stand ready to be educated of that fact. I am not wholly unwilling to make some compromises (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Well, no, the Barbary Pirates were like cockroachs. They hung around for quite some time despite numerous people trying to wipe them out. Once the Pax Brittanica began they were finally surpressed (another parallel for your example with the (...) (21 years ago, 2-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote (...) I will grant that the threat isn't demonstrable, except of course, the carnage perpetrated on 9-11. The problem is that the potential threat is so horrific that if it isn't pre-emptively (...) (21 years ago, 3-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) Bully, you mean? (...) Lead article in this month's Reason: (URL) both the cite request for loss of privacy and the cite request for denial of right to travel. Note that now that the feds took over, there no longer is the valid defence of "try (...) (21 years ago, 3-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Many thanks, Lar! That's the stuff. And I used to read some of that mag online too... Yeah, social engineering is a big gap in security -- and always will be, that's why it almost always works. My information belongs to me, and in the EU AND the (...) (21 years ago, 3-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) And very closely related to this story... US anti-war activists hit by secret airport ban (URL) After more than a year of complaints by some US anti-war activists that they were being unfairly targeted by airport security, Washington has (...) (21 years ago, 3-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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(...) I realize how some people here will interpret this but if peaceful means (protesting, legal action, etc.) are being covertly outlawed, then it is getting awful close to the time when it will be neccessary invoke our second amendment right in (...) (21 years ago, 4-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) C /only/biggest/ and I'm totally on board with that. The French don't scare me much, frankly (er, sorry about that :-) ). (21 years ago, 4-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I don't have any cites, but my mom is sure wondering if there's any connection between here peacefull war protests and the fact that everytime she goes though airport security she gets the "full treatment". I'm personally not convinced, but (...) (21 years ago, 4-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But not being an activist is still no guarantee. The Sacramento NBC affiliate did a story about two men -- one a school teacher, the other a truck driver-- who were detained at Sac International simply for having the same fairly common name as (...) (21 years ago, 4-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: The War That Never Ends
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) Hear! Hear!! Let that truth be told everywhere! Dave K (21 years ago, 5-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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