Debate : 16050


Off-Topic / Debate / 16050

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Frank Filz

(...) I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset, however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for power, based on a power structure which (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Richard Marchetti

(...) And this so-called power gives them what precisely? World attention? It took years for that to happen -- and even now a guy like Arafat is suspected of not having very much real power even with his own people anyway. I remain very unconvinced (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dave Schuler

(...) To be fair, "they" also identify such a distinction, and "them" ain't "us." I understand your point and agree with it in the abstract, but I think it's a mistake to act as if all distinctions are arbitrary, fleeting, or non-existent--even if (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —David Koudys

(...) yeah, it's not a situation that can be remedied by sound bites and bandaids.. To add a separate thread of debate -- one thing that has been bothering me as of late is the 'restitution for atrocities that happened in the past' It was wrong for (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dave Schuler

(...) Yes indeed, but let's be realistic about it. There are people ALIVE TODAY who participated in atrocities during WWII against people who are ALIVE TODAY, so it's not like this is something we're inferring from the fossil record. For many (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Frank Filz

(...) I agree that desperation is what is driving _most_ of the Palestinians. However, a small number have achieved positions of power (not really Arafat, though he certainly has some power) due to their ability to lead and incite rebellion. These (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dan Boger

(...) (URL) only shows the Israeli casualties though... I don't know where to find the Palestinian side. Also all these are easy to verify (cnn, ruiters), unlike some of the PA claims. Dan (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Pedro Silva

(...) available, it seems so - has this also been verified in past times of conflict? (say '87-'93, for instance) Pedro (just curious, really) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) their attack on the Jordanian village of Qibya in ‘53. The day after the attack a UN observer said that the IDF had forced civilians to stay in their homes whilst they were demolished around them. 69 civilians were killed - over half of them (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dan Boger

(...) so you're not saying that what I quoted was wrong, just that they were missing some info? perhaps. BTW, that attack in '53 is taught today, still, in IDF basic training as an example of an "illegal command", which a soldier is not allowed to (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Pedro Silva

(...) Define "significant", please. 'Cause I can remember *a lot* of peaceful nations that resulted from the acceptance of their independance by a theoretically much stronger enemy, rather than its anihilation. Browse through a map of Europe and you (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Richard Marchetti

(...) Well, actually I reject the notion that desperation is not a factor in N.I. Peace is one issue, freedom is another. I am not sure I can condone a state of peace maintained at the expense of freedom and self-rule -- is one expected to be happy (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dan Boger

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: this is one of the scariest, most disturbing posts I've ever read on LUGNET. (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —James Trobaugh

I'm with you on that Dan. jt (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Richard Marchetti

(...) I, for one, could use some clarification here. I certainly had no intention of offending anyone of any culture or race or etc. I am for peace. I do not see myself as favoring either side in violence. If my "Romeo and Juliet" solution seemed in (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I do hope that you'll choose to clarify this. Not only because I'd be interested to hear what was "scary" about Richard's note but also because I think that to whatever extent you occupy an administrative role, throwaway comments like this (...) (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Fredrik Glöckner

(...) I agree with you. Fredrik (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) ...and agree with you. Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Most people might agree. Why do they need a homeland? I'm leaning toward believing that the very notion of 'homeland' is a divisive instrument. Maybe we should seek to eliminate that idea globally. (...) I think that terror is a tool (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) The interesting point about a Jewish "homeland", is that at the turn of the last centaury a large tract of Argentina was being considered seriously. Scott A (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) In our culture, we are mostly brought up to believe that life is precious and that suicide isn't a viable option. We are shocked and dismayed when people kill (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What exactly are these warriors promised from the afterlife? How is their belief about the ultimate sacrifice different than our own? Many Americans have made suicidal attacks "in the line of honor." How and why is it different? I think that (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) The fact that these attacks are suicide attacks is irrelevant. The issue is the deliberate and unjustifiable killing of civilians. (...) What do padres promise your country’s troops as they go into battle? Hell and damnation? I think not! (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Ross Crawford

(...) A little monetary incentive helps too (URL) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) money, or even how many bombers were motivated by it. I really doubt it is a deciding factor when you are forced to give up land your family has lived on for generations to house economic refugees from Eastern Europe. Israel is also rewarded (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) The Israelis are trying to encourage the "desire for power" by isolating Arafat. Just the same as they did when they helped establish Hamas to rival the PLO in ‘88. (...) Desperation for what? More land? A western lifestyle? Shopping Malls? (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dan Boger

(...) I wonder where you get your information from? please share... "Through late Wednesday, the IDF said it had arrested about 1,100 Palestinians in the West Bank over the last couple of days, including many "wanted Palestinians." The Israeli (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) The front page of The Guardian (not an infotainment channel). The online version: (URL) far, the onslaught has produced few tangible results for Israel while reducing Palestinian towns to smouldering wrecks, penning tens of thousands in their (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dan Boger

(...) so when you said that "to date, there have been *6* militants arrested" you meant to say "in that one attack", ah. Also, I really haven't heard of any towns "reduced to smouldering wrecks" - I guess I don't read the same sources you do. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Larry Pieniazek

(...) You're wasting your breath. Careful you don't fall into the same trap that I did, so many times before. (but which I think I'm mostly cured of, now... time will tell) Fail to ignore him at your peril. (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

volume v quality (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East) —Scott Arthur

<snip> (...) <snip> Larry, That's correct. I (and others) cured you of your need to engage in name-calling and mudslinging in this group. It's just my view, but I think this group is better because you no longer post here in the manner you once did. (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: volume v quality (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Until this thread came up, your own postings here were pretty scant. It was quite wonderful. "Thanks for making this a better place! ;)" Chris (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dan Boger

(...) thanks for the reminder. I was breaking my own rule here, but I'll just have to try harder. (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) Read again Dan: "After Israeli helicopters and tanks bombarded a security compound in Ramallah for nearly 24 hours, a government spokeswoman announced the capture of just six wanted Palestinian militants. There was no sign that the house to (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) Well I guess it is only now that the press is getting access: (URL) read Suzanne Goldenberg's report. She describes the camp as "a vast expanse of rubble": (URL) A (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Dave Schuler

(...) camp, a town, a camp-within-a-town, a town-within-a-camp, or something else? I ask because I've heard it referred to alternatively as any of the above, so I'm unclear of what sort of area is at stake. That doesn't in any way reduce the loss (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Fredrik Glöckner

(...) It's sort of both. Jenin was originally a town. The refugee camp was built next to the town decades ago, and has slowly evolved into a town itself. According to my understandment of the recent events, it was the refugee camp (which is more (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

This is from my memory, so don’t recite too loudly! Dan Jassim probably could give your question more justice. I have never visited but… I think the short answer is "both". On the edge of the town of Jenin exists a refugee camp which has probably (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Lawrence Wilkes

"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:Guo8A8.3J7@lugnet.com... (...) probably (...) edge of (...) refugees (...) the (...) the (...) 6-day (...) that (...) shantytown (...) Independence (...) the land (...) Quite a bit of video (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) Look at Israel’s history since ’47. Look at the current conflict. Do you think Sharon sent in the army and imposed a virtual press blackout with a plan to drink sweet tea, hand out fruit and talk peace? Really? The Palestinian's agree it (...) (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Lawrence Wilkes

"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:GupGzn.7J5@lugnet.com... (...) you (...) with a (...) their (...) use (...) record. (...) I wasn't making any judgement. Just saying what was reported on the BBC news. lawrence (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Richard Marchetti

(...) Since I have never been to your land, a comparison to the BBC would be helpful for me since I do have some sense where they fall into place. So I guess one could say that these people live either actually at war, or in a de facto state of war, (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Impartiality, like beauty, is always in the eye of the beholder. (Re: Conflict in the Middle East) —Scott Arthur

(...) The BBC has a charter that says it must be 100% independent/impartial... and this is checked quite thoroughly. The Guardian is an independent newspaper (owned by a trust) which is free to print what it wishes without being libellous. It (...) (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Impartiality, like beauty, is always in the eye of the beholder. (Re: Conflict in the Middle East) —Richard Marchetti

Scott: Many thanks for the information about the Guardian. The hard copy will not be necessary, but I appreciate the offer very much. -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Pedro Silva

(...) The US took control of a route to Central Asian Oil and Gas fields that does not pass through Russia nor Iran? Particularly interesting, when we know Bush has personal interests in this sector. Pedro (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Scott Arthur

(...) I shall have to change my question! You may consider it a "victory", but which of the *stated* war aims have been met? ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 5-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Conflict in the Middle East —Pedro Silva

(...) I'd have to know what were the stated war aims. IMO, all statements on that issue were too vague to be comprehensible. :-/ And frankly, this conflict still does not fit my definition of "war". Maybe "intervention" is more like it. And there is (...) (22 years ago, 5-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)