Debate : 14992


Off-Topic / Debate / 14992

		*The real* Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic**
Hi all, I have been observing recent events in the world, and i just have to say, the governments in some of the major western powers (UK, Canada, and especially the US)have lost their marbles completely. Most other parts of Europe seem to have (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) For what it's worth, Norwegian courts can probably not extradite a suspected terrorist to USA anymore. This is due to the fact that they can stand a chance of being convicted by rules which are in conflict with basic international principles (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) Although our plight is not as bad as elsewhere, I'm certainty not happy with the legislation we are rushing through right now. A few hours is being spent setting aside laws which have worked well for >500 years. By Xmas the UK will have laws (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) I think EU countries do not extradite where there is a chance of a death penalty anyway? ...perhaps OBL should come live in the EU? That aside, your point is an interesting one. Most of the new legislation allows for situations where there is (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) It should be noted that ->people<- of the United States rejected the current guy residing in the White House. The joke was that as soon as Dubya got power, his first words would be, "Let the executions begin." (...) CNN: America's New (and (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) You mean over the past hundred years? It seems to me that today is the natural evolution of a hundred years of incrementally giving up the American way. (...) Yeah. From my informal discussion over the past two months, most people don't really (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
I'm replying to bits of John's post as well as Chris'. (...) I think I understand your intended point here, but the notion that The American Way should be what it was 200 years ago is baseless and anachronistic. The American Way of 200 years ago was (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) the (...) the (...) have (...) months. And who will be in government when the time limit arrives? What's the chances they'll vote to extend it? (...) Our government passed an equally stupid bill regarding asylum seekers recently (with the help (...) (23 years ago, 30-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) The good parts, of course. Unequal sufferage of the law was (and still is) a problem with the implementation of 'The American Way' not a flaw in it. We should keep working to improve our inclusion of all people. I don't seek to replicate the (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) I suppose no sane courts would extradite without sound evidence. But even with sound evidence, it is a violation of basic principles of right to extradite suspects to a country in which they may face an "improper" justice. The recent events (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
Hi John! First off, let me say - I hear you. I know what you're talking about (and Chris is right - you're speaking to the wrong crowd, people on lugnet are generally not crowd-followers(1)). I've seen it happen too as I was watching CNN lately. (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) The one in which the rights of the individual is ideally paramount. The one that enumerated those rights both in the body of the U.S. Constitution (basically a summary what the individual could expect the representative govt. to look and act (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate) !

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
Hi Richard! (...) Actually, to be fair, the "American Way" as you define it is much more omnipresent in the Declaration of Independence than in the Constitution. By far. Read it and weep, bro - and while you're at it, get a copy of the (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) Well, if they were alive today -- I'd kiss Thomas Jefferson, shake hands with guys like Madison and Jay, and kick Hamilton in the pain zone (::sigh:: if only Burr had killed him sooner =oP). No arguments over the value of the Declaration, it (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Ack, I deleted the subject line without having a good replacement.
(...) Sorry, but this made me arrrrggh: "more omnipresent". "Omni-" means "all," making it redundant. Of course, I knew what you meant, but I'm just an omnidork. (...) Unfortunately we're still in the mindset of "with enough safeguards we can (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
Speaking of reading, I suggest the anthology _An American Primer_ (Daniel J. Boorstin) for basic readings. Want Washington's Inaugral Address (to Congress) and Farewell Address? Jefferson's? John Adams' "What do we mean by the American Revolution?" (...) (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
Ob. Lego: Yes, you should rush out and read Louis Sullivan's essay "The Tall Office Building Artistically Considered"! and then go build! Also interesting: his _Autobiography of an Idea_ and _System of Ornament_. (23 years ago, 1-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) I disagree. Two hundred years ago, as now, the rights of the individual were paramount, but the definition of individual was very different and was suited to the demands of the time. Would slave-dependent states have signed the Constitution (...) (23 years ago, 2-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) Some people were already agitating for the freeing of slaves. The southern states would not accept such a change to their economy. I am pretty sure slaves were understood to be individuals with rights, denied them or not, what was asserted (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) There is a lot of talk in our media too. Most of it about foreign nationals living here planning acts in 3rd countries. They all seem top overlook the possibility that UK nationals may wish to plant bombs also... Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) Good questions. What is good about a time limit is that it will quickly remove "knee jerk" legislation. It will also should force bad legislation to be re-debated & perhaps modified/repealed. (...) Talking of your government, I heard that you (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
(...) I have to say that that strikes me as a fundamentally selfish view. Repugnant as it may seem, I'm sure there would have been those who yesterday said of Israel "They'll understand now". When Israel retaliates, will they say, “They'll (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: The real Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
My my. It is not often we see posts highligted here, you appear to have struck a chord with readers. I agree with a great deal of what you have said. However I think the genie is already out of the bottle on a number issues. (...) Why restrict (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Republic? (was: The real Phantom Menace ...)
(...) recently (...) You shouldn't listen to rumours! Anyone who predicts 100% chance in anything political is talking through the wrong end of their digestive tract. It's likely (IMO) we may become a republic in the next 20 years. I'm not prepared (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Republic? (was: The real Phantom Menace ...)
(...) Agreed. (...) I think that's a lot more doubtful. There seems to be much higher public support for the flag "that our diggers fought and died for" than there is for the monarchy*. And then there's the Hawaii precedent. (...) I wonder how long (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Republic? (was: The real Phantom Menace ...)
(...) I don't think our republicans will want that 'orrible symbol o' the muvver country in the corner... (...) Changing to decimal currency took about 2 years, I think. Maybe they'll go for US denominations, just to force a change 8?/ It'll be (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Republic? (was: The real Phantom Menace ...)
(...) A rather right-wing Oz friend always says the aboriginal flag looks good. I've never seen it, but it sounds better than just making one up. Rather interestingly, Scottish bank notes have no sign of the Queen on them... Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)