Subject:
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Re: The *real* Phantom Menace and the fall of the republic
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:20:42 GMT
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Viewed:
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372 times
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I'm replying to bits of John's post as well as Chris'.
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Grubber writes:
> > Hi all,
> > I have been observing recent events in the world, and i just
> > have to say, the governments in some of the major western powers
> > (UK, Canada, and especially the US)have lost their marbles completely.
>
> It seems to me that today is the natural
> evolution of a hundred years of incrementally giving up the American way.
I think I understand your intended point here, but the notion that The
American Way should be what it was 200 years ago is baseless and
anachronistic. The American Way of 200 years ago was to deny women the
right to vote and to own human beings as property. Which American Way are
we giving up, exactly?
> > oh no, the givernment can do no wrong, they are acting in our best interests.
>
> This really is a troubling trend. I stil work in a place where heated comments
> will ensue if I make comments that mildly disparage our national policy. All
> hail Lord Bush is more popular.
To be fair, no one--and I mean no one--has put forth a reasonable or
realistic alternative to Bush's policy. I don't agree with all of it (and
certainly not the "turn in your buddies in exchange for citizenship" bit),
but I would love to hear another suggestion. Even the so-called "rounding
up" of Arab men cannot yield any conclusions until we know more about it.
They're not going out with a big butterfly net to scoop up all olive-skinned
males. It seems likely that some factor, whether it be questionable VISA
status or outstanding traffic tickets, has caused the detained individuals
to be detained while other Arab men are not detained. It is premature to
blast the practice until more is known. If, however, it turns out that
these men have been baselessly detained, I will join you in condemning the
action.
> > What a bunch of damned sheep. Wake up people. Those in power look out for
> > number one- themselves.
>
> You're ranting to the wrong crowd...we all agree with you.
Though I would underscore this by saying that those in power have *always*
looked out for themselves. There is absolutely nothing new about this; the
only things that has changed are the people whom those in power identify as
being part of "themselves."
> > They don't realize that Bin Laden has already won- we have
> > given away the freedoms we cherish,
I would identify that as a naive view of a complex situation. In what
demonstrable way has your freedom been compromised by the US Government in
the wake of 9/11? I care not a bit about paranoid, kneejerk, Big Brother
fears, and slippery-slope reasoning is falacious and baseless. And in any
case I would point out that the sort of rights infringement that you seem to
reject has also been a fact since before you or I was born, although the
technology has changed in that time.
> I'm not sure that matters as to whether or not we should be bombing in Asia.
> Agree that he gave us a thumping and we're sore from it, but I think we are
> actually seeing to it that he's both won and lost.
Bid Laden's goal was probably not to make the US Government curtail the
rights of US Citizens and VISA-carrying aliens, so to claim that bin Laden
has won on the basis of either is simple propaganda.
> > Ben Franklin said (paraphrased) that "those who would sacrifice freedom for
> > security deserve neither freedom nor security." Guess what folks? There is a
> > time coming when we are going to have neither. First though, we are going to
> > have the peace of the jailer- the Police states of America.
I have a hard time distinguishing this sort of wild speculation from the
standard mantras of mythically-far-right conspiracy theorists. I'd love to
see some evidence that this will occur, rather than "well, A and B happened,
so we can be sure that C will happen."
> The NRA has nothing to do with it.
Amen, but tell it to Heston.
Dave!
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