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(...) <...> (...) <...> (...) Dave, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what evolutionary theory is. I would encourage you to step back from the evolution:creation debate, and try and look at the theory of evolution from within a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I think you are confusing it with the pagan celebration of the winter solstice (Christmas was traditionally celebrated on the day when there was the least amount of light-- in the northern hemisphere:-)-- as the day when the light came into (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) In fact, the coelecanth *has* undergone further change. Genus Latimera is unknown in the fossil record; it is *a* coelecanth, but there are many, many types. A few of the changes that have happened to the coelecanth since the end of the (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) These are two really different things. For the record, Christmas is not a Christian holy day -- it is a pagan holiday. Some of its practices are even condemned in as ancient a text as the book of Jeremiah (probably as idolatry): ~~~...~~~ 10:2 (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Yes;-) I know you, Lar, and I know that you *deliberately* didn't capitalize "Christmas". One's personal feelings about religions, etc, are irrelevant to grammar, unless someone is trying to make something of it as you were in your own little (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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I think from the whole tone of the subsequent discussion that I should have put smileys everywhere. I was originally going for the humourous ribbing--wink wink nudge nudhge--who really cares--i mean, take a look at the last line I put about (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Rational: After repeated trials eliminating as many external variables as possible, it is apparent that penicillin has a positive medicinal effect on the disease tuberculosis Intuitive: I slept with the window open, and my tuberculosis (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) False. Evolution describes the changes to fit the environment (simplifying greatly). If the Ceolacanth evolved to the point *where it succeeded in its' environment*, it doesn't necessarily have to change any more to fit Evolutionary Theory. (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Well, that's not the part that's falsifiable. And, I agree-- if we take the absolutemost non-literal translation of the Bible and say 1 day = 8.6 billion years or what-have-you, then yes, you're right, it may *not* be falsifiable. Certainly (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) But I could say the same about the existence of an infinite Being. <snipping here> (...) This is because science is using a loaded bat (to continue the metaphor). The presuppositions of science are that if you can't test it, observe it, (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Once again, the difference is jumping species. Whether it's 2 years or 2 thousand years, or 2 million years, a fish is still a fish. Sure, it adapted over the course of those millions of years to climate changes, grew a new fin to help it (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) You have misidentified me, sir. I do not find it vexing in the least when people omit the (tm) on things. I personally could care less about the entire matter, except for the slight fact that I have trademarks that I have invested effort in (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I think you reversed the prediction with the evidence. The evidence was (IIRC) that galaxies are all moving away from each other, and the *conclusion* was that the Big Bang happened. There is no "Therefore, BECAUSE the Big Bang happened, X". (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) BTW, it's bugging me that people haven't detailed the fish yet, just because I used to follow the info on it closely. It was just in the last decade or so that they've caught LIVE ones for scientists. For the longest time, they were just (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I dunno if I'd go so far as to distinguish these two methods of reasoning as much as you'd like to... Could you give me an utterly basic example of each? (...) Ah-- so here's the clutch. Your argument is that your reasoning is superior to (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) What? Of course the Big Bang theory makes predictions. Virtually any model makes predictions. You then see if observable data matches the predictions - in the case of the Big Bang, are galaxies (or more properly galactic groupings) moving away (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Actually, no it's not. At least, not Christian Creationism, which is really what we're talking about. The presence of an omnipotent being by definition eliminates all falsifiability or empirical verification--two necessary criteria for a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) "Micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" are creationist terms, not terms used by scientists. That should tell you something right away. Further, in evolution, what you would call "macro-evolution" is nothing more than "micro-evolution" over a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Well, don't condemn me for the assumptions *you're* making. Here's a restatement: A: Rational reasoning is based on experience and observation of verifiable evidence B: Intuitive reasoning is based on feelings and impressions independent of (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) It wasn't specifically the (tm) issue I was referring to. As one of the people who find it vexing when folks wrongly leave off the (tm) off things that should have the (tm), you should (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) <pedant> Doing so is presumably taking a position on the whole religion thang (albiet a pretty mild expression thereof), and of course your right to free expression and all that jazz. But Dave is still correct in that Christmas is a proper (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: Well, super. After I climb all the way up onto my high horse someone comes along with a polite and articulate post (and he's Canadian, of all things!) Some great points follow: (...) "Missing link" (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes: <snippety snip> (...) I'm OK with that view! (does that come as a shock to anyone???) Reason is our evolutionary advantage. If you can't or won't reason, you're repudiating your humanity. I'm an (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Mabye this seems cold but I feel that this has to do with continuity of the species. Maternal instinct is found in many species to varying degree, as is monogamous relationships. Monogany helps assures fidelity, security and assures the (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) No it wouldn't, but it would be incorrect in my view, when referring to things that happened around that time. We don't celebrate the christian christmas. (...) It's not a trademarked name. Unlike Father's Day(tm) which Hallmark(tm) invented. (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Disagree-- but you won't like the answer. (...) Sure it is. It's just that *IF* most Creationists were presented with conflicting data, they'd choose to ignore or dismiss it. Just like you ignore or dismiss the Bible as evidence against (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) But would it kill ya to put a Capital C on Christmas? I mean, being the (tm) truant for LUGNET(tm) and Guild of Bricksmiths(tm), you, Larry, of all people, should realize the vexing incurred by those that read something like that. Think of it (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Very well thought out and written, Dave! A few of my thoughts and ideas (that I can guarantee won't be as thought out nor in any sense a coherent order)... I find that there are fellow Christians out there who *have* to hit others over the (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Well, you're making several different points here, so let's take them one by one; First off, John R's not saying Creationism isn't "valid;" he's saying that it's not a "valid scientific theory," and he's 100% correct. Creationism is not (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Hey, you're the winner, J-1, and for your prize, you get the white elephant *I* got "stuck" with at my last such gift exchange during Christmas last year-- a sculpted dog on his back/invisible tape dispencer:-) -John (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Isn't accusing someone of using "falacious logic" an insult to their person? IE assuming they're a lesser one? I think the assumption you're making is that "I would *never* come to that conclusion, but you would, and that conclusion is (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Only in part. I was partly refering to the trend to dismiss faith-based arguments, but I was more speaking to the further dismissal of anyone bringing forward faith-based arguments. John (Neal)'s borne the recent brunt of this, but he's by no (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Yes, that's what he indicated to me offline. My immediate family only celebrates the secular traditions that exist and are celebrated at that time of year, and "winter solstice celebration" is a bit too hard to type. :-) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I'm guessing Mr. Neal is referring to the non-capitalization of "Christmas"... (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I'm one of those people, so I'll offer something of an explanation. It's not that we (allow me to presume to speak for others who share my view on this) think an anti-evolutionist is a lesser *person,* but it is almost invariably the case that (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I think this is the attitude that James B. was referring to. Let me ask you, what's not "valid" about Creationism? I don't think 'science' can or will be able to disprove it-- although I don't doubt that it will find mounds more evidence to (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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(...) Dang, I think ya got me there, finally. Bruce :-) (Dubya only hurts when I smile....and frown...and grimmace...and....) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I don't have a problem if someone believes in a higher power, wants to attend a church, etc. This is America and you have that personal right. I DO have a problem when lawmakers in Ohio try to push their religious views into public school (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) That's basically the conclusion that I came to. When someone asks "well then where did the universe and all this stuff come from?", I reply "Can you phrase that question without invoking within it concepts of spacetime itself?" (i.e. cause & (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) my bad and duly noted. I did say in that post 'The intial spark of life is debatable too' which I really should have clarified at the beginning as well. Your explanation as to how evolution does not get involved into that murky area is great, (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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