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(...) Well, he *was* writing the *dissent*... My point was the the majority used the concept of a national consensus for justification. If *that's* valid, then I would think that that justification would apply to the pledge case as well (where I (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: [snipitty] (...) Unless I'm totally misremembering, a good number of the 'American forefathers' were Deists, not Christians. A Deist's 'god' would definitely not be the Judeo-Christian God. Steve (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) a picture of a Jefferson who appreciates the topical philosophy of Jesus while not attributing divinity. Hell, if you include people like that under the umbrella of Christianity, then I suppose you'd call me a Christian too. But of course (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So in addition to being a self-admited homophobic, misogynist bigot, you also presume to judge who can sincerely invoke God's name? How many times have you cast the first stone, John? (...) Atheism is as American as apple pie. My right to be (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, it was about *NOT* executing the mentally retarded, but your point is off-the-mark at any rate. Scalia castigated the SC for what he perceived as an attempt to establish a national consensus where none exists. If that's the case, (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is a perfectly valid observation. Certainly there are those that feel the 9th Circuit Court's ruling will be struck down along those lines - the "liberal" Los Angeles Times entitled it's editorial on the subject "A Godforsaken Ruling" and (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This has nothing to do with Christianity-- you are the one who mentioned it and thus you are the one who denegrated this debate to sarcasm and whatnot (and in doing so missed my initial point entirely). Read Jefferson's Virginia Statute of (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What I'm arguing is that the FF used religious language pretty freely (non-specific to be sure). Of course they didn't want a state-sponsored religion, but at the same time they recognized the importance of religion to the people. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(URL) now I'm really done. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who doesn't know any better, and doesn't want to know any better. Read other branches of the thread, John. ALL of the rest of us are wrong about Jefferson, and you know better -- is (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(URL) now I'm really done. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who doesn't know any better, and doesn't want to know any better. Read other branches of the thread, John. ALL of the rest of us are wrong about Jefferson, and you know better -- is (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When he professes that "I am a Christian", I think it makes my argument better than yours. (...) Ahh. Welcome to Christianity 101. You think every Christian believes the same thing? And FWIW, (...) So what's your point? (...) Fine. -John (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As far as you know. (...) Your cite? (...) The point is that that kind of "religious" language permeates their thought and writings, however they "really" felt about it. You are correct that Jefferson and others cleverly didn't get specific (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Really, John! Do you think Richard is going to fall for that old trick? This is a debate about the separation of church and state, *not* about creationism. The "non-stupidness" of Jefferson referred to by Froggy is merely that he knew how to (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) While Jefferson embraced the ideas of Christ (perhaps the parables, sort of the red letter stuff), he was fairly hostile to the idea of Christ's divinity and to certain aspects of the gospels (esp. Pauline thought). I don't think that (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, *I* was going to try and keep it above specifics, but since you mentioned it.... And I don't feel like looking up all your past (...) No need to wonder. I am indeed a Christian, although I feel that that fact is moot in this discussion. (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Indeed. Although I haven't read the founders as such, I can read the Declaration of Independence and find that the alleged invocation is of the form of "...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Amen, brother!!!! You are preaching to the choir on that one! (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right -- Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, etc... (...) Yes, fair enough -- but while there continues to be some psycho-xtian movement afoot to show that the framers were bible thumpers -- or that they even cared about such things, I think I can (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Um, you're overgeneralizing. SOME of the Founding Fathers were indeed professed and practicing christians... Just not any of the ones that did the heavy lifting to get this nation off the ground. So you need to be more specific, I think, (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's pretty obvious what brands of religion are going to be the most concerned about this issue. And I don't feel like looking up all your past posts merely to discover that you ARE indeed some kind of christian, it is my assumption that you (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You seem to be arguing that there shouldn't be a separation between church and state, the same thing these 'founding father' seemed wary of. (...) Deists come *awfully* darn close, in function if not appearance. (...) I've always called the (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Evidentily the Knights of Columbus did. This Catholic organization is the one that led the charge to get the words "under God" appended to the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge has existed longer without those words than with them (okay, not by (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) He's figured us out. Ah well, it was fun while it lasted. DaveE (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) LOL Hope you enjoyed it while it lasted. Seems the old coot who wrote the decision has already recanted. What a quack. -John (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Here's another encouraging bit of religious tolerance: Newdow said that since the ruling he has received death threats, including one left on his answering machine that said, "You're a dead man walking." Newdow said he has received a flood of (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I understand that they have been overturned by the SC 12 of 17 times, or something like that. Nice track record! I assume it will be sent up to the (...) Especially after their (US Supreme Court) *last* ridiculous ruling (executing the (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Since I'm the one who mentioned your libelous comments, I'll address this. You mischaracterize me (and thereby attempt a straw-man argument) by suggesting that I cry libel whenever I read something I dislike--that's simply not the case. I (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Some more quotes for you: "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion." - John Adams "I am no Christian" - Ethan Allen "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have not mentioned any particular religion so far, so for you to is a little puzzling... If the FF weren't religious, why envoke the name of God in the D of I? (...) So why should *now* be any different? (As any politician will soon find out (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Serves me right?
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(...) Agreed! You should give grace us with your crap more often. Chris (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Well, um... thanks for clearing that up! (...) Apropos of nothing in particular I would like to point out that as a child I had to sing both lyrical versions of this song at various points in my elementary school career (1), and therefore I remember (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That line of mine is from 'Oh Canada' Sometimes when I'm debating, I jump from one side of hte border to the other 'cause invariably, the stupidity that happens to our bigger brother, will eventually happen to us, though always on a much (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm confused by it. Before we get into why, I want to state clearly that I oppose the practice of reciting the PoA in schools with every ounce of my being -- but not particularly because of the God thing. Such childhood political (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John: The founding fathers were not religious and they were certainly not christians -- and that's putting it mildly. More anon... (...) I am sure at least some critical members actually were; or if not, they were merely deists[1] -- which is sort (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The original intent of lugnet.lego.direct was to serve for polite, swift and to the point discussions with LEGO Direct (or something mostly to that effect). I think that the group has evolved into something completely different by now. It is (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This reminds me of a good line in the movie Spartacus. Senator Gracchus says to Marcus, "Privately I don't believe in any of the gods, and neither do you, but publicly? I believe in all of 'em." The Senate resolved 99-0... which senator was (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Of course all Christians are equal, it's just that some are even more equal... /Tore (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I wouldn't have expected you to want to keep anyone straight...What do you care? Chris FUT lugnet.off-topic.out...ext-quotes (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, but this group was created to serve as a kind of 'steam valve'. The intent was for threads that started in other groups, but got heated and off-topic, to move to this group. There was never an intent for this group to actually generate (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I continue to recommend to people to read original sources. It is hard to find a ringing endorsement of religion in Jefferson, for example. Certainly the Founding Fathers read religous books and belonged to various denominations, and the (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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