Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:21:17 GMT
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Viewed:
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1611 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > I
> > > simply don't understand how the US Congress can legislate the phrase "Under
> > > God" without it being a literal State-establishment of religion.
> >
> > Like it or not, our nation was founded by men who believed that the US was a
> > country of higher purpose-- as it has turned out to be. To extricate the core
> > values of those who created the Constitution is to unravel the very fabric of
> > our being.
>
> You seem to be arguing that there shouldn't be a separation between church
> and state, the same thing these 'founding father' seemed wary of.
What I'm arguing is that the FF used religious language pretty freely
(non-specific to be sure). Of course they didn't want a state-sponsored
religion, but at the same time they recognized the importance of religion to
the people.
>
> >
> > This country was *not* founded by a group of Atheists;
>
> Deists come *awfully* darn close, in function if not appearance.
>
> > I would submit that the
> > founding of such a country wouldn't even be *possible* from such a group
> > (Russia is a good example). Fact is, every country will create a "religion"
> > whether it is based on a belief in a god or not.
>
> I've always called the communism of the Soviet Union a state religion, but I
> must disagree with the rest.
Exactly.
Less likely, yes, but hardly impossible.
Who knows? It hasn't happened yet....
>
> >
> > I think the Founding Fathers believed, as do I, that the US would be more than
> > just another nation among nations. We believe that we are special, that we
> > have a higher calling and purpose, and indeed it is *because* of that belief
> > that we have in fact become that. We are the most powerful nation to have ever
> > existed, and yet the idea of conquering the world never occurs to us. Why?
> > Because we believe are above and beyond that kind of thinking.
>
> Manifest destiny? Grabbing Spanish colonies? Grabbing American Indian
> land? These are the consequences of thinking you are better than everyone else.
Because in many ways we were. I really don't want to get into this, but
history is about superior cultures taking over inferior cultures. Suffice to
say that we did limit our expansion voluntarily.
>
> >
> > And this country did not become great because of "natural resources" or any
> > external reasons. It became great because of its citizen's *attitudes*, their
> > *optimism* for a better life. This kind of optimism can only be found in one
> > who believes that they are a part of some higher purpose.
>
> Religion is not the only source of optimism in life, and it is sheer vanity
> and arrogance to think otherwise. This is NOT to denigrate those who find
> inspiration in religion, mind you, just the assumption that other values are
> inherently worthless.
I don't know. The optimism and spirit of the early settlers and throughout our
history is hard match in history. Perhaps you can explain it.
>
> >
> > At the core of our greatness lies the belief in one God. Now, the P of A
> > merely says "under God"-- it does *not* say whose brand of God; it does not
> > endorse any *particular* religion or denomination, which is the true purpose
> > for the separation of Church and State. There is no mention of separation of
> > "religion" and state.
>
> It's pretty inherent that it is the Christian God that is being refered to
> (Knight's of Columbus, a Catholic organization, was behind the words "under
> God" being appended to the PoA). Even if you wish to represent otherwise,
> what about non-monotheistic religions such as Hinduism? We were formed as a
> country of inclusion, not exclusion.
The FFs all spoke English and ate cows-- wouldn't *that* exclude Indians more?
Sorry, don't buy it.
>
> >
> > The fact that Atheists don't believe in a God is irrelevant. Nobody is forcing
> > them to-- that right is guaranteed by the Constitution.
>
> Here's a mental exercise and test: what if the tables were turned and the
> pledge of allegiance had "under God" replaced with "because there is no
> God"? I'd line up against that one, too.
>
> >
> > This country is the way it is because it is the way it is-- change it at its
> > core and you get a different country.
>
> If you are indicating that the PoA is somehow at the core of the country,
> then what about the time when the words "under God" weren't part of the PoA?
No, I was referring to generic references to God throughout our history.
>
> >
> > The fact is that most of the great men and women who served this country were
> > people of faith-- there is simply no denying that and it can't be changed, no
> > matter how offensive that may be to Atheists.
>
> What does this have to do with the Constitution, or the PoA (original or
> corrupted version)?
Because they chose to speak using religious language. What about the Lincoln
Memorial? It has Biblical references all over it. Would you scrape it clean
and replace it with something else?
>
> >
> > We are not a religious state, but we were certainly made great by religious
> > people. Denying *that* is offensive.
>
> And we have also been made great by non-religious people. Denying that is
> equally offensive.
Furthermore, it is really here nor there in relation to
> whether public schools should be trying to inculcate a belief in monotheism
> (really Christianity).
NOT really. This is a disingenuous obfuscation of this issue. I have
purposefully tried to refrain from referring to Christianity, but you and
others keep bringing it up-- it is irrelevant.
-John
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