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Hi Jake,
I NEVER get involved with controversial issues on LUGNET, but I couldn't stay
quiet any longer (or I might explode into a million minifig parts).
First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal.
People GET OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just leave it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging the rest of us!
And don't make it sound like we (the rest of the AFOL community) are behind you!
They made a color change without our input. They admitted that in the future
they would consult with us. That sounds fine by me. I'm over it. I still
trust them. You can always buy more of the old stuff on Bricklink, and besides
Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, it will
look real and not perfect.
And for the Factory, they started with Town. So what! It seems like everytime
TLG starts some initiative (for the AFOL community) there are always people who
whine about it. Oh what about castle or what about space or what about this or
that. Heck they cannot do everything at once for everyone. Besides Town has
been ignored for quite a number of years.
4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK about how TLG
is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it. It never did make it to
KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego Direct was announced. So they
certainly did heard us.
Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or dozens
of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking at the
negative.
TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's case,
trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
years.
For someone who has been involved with Lego for 44 years, I have to tell the
rest of you this: For a long time no one has been more critical of TLG than I
have, and for good reason (I actually purchased 90 copies of one $5 set in 1987
only to get the 4 yellow windows out of each set).
But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that Lego
has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right now,
and it is getting better!
I've said enough!
(Now where is that blood pressure medicine...)
Gary Istok
A Lego Addict since 1960.
P.S. Jake, I know that some days you ask yourself if all this is worth it, well
you have my (and a lot of other AFOLs) heartfelt thanks for what you are trying
to doing for us. God bless you.
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> Hi Jake,
>
> I NEVER get involved with controversial issues on LUGNET, but I couldn't stay
> quiet any longer (or I might explode into a million minifig parts).
>
> First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal.
> People GET OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just leave it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging the rest of us!
thank you, I've been thinking the same thing!
> Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, it will
> look real and not perfect.
that is true, and now you can achieve an even better look with 4+ shades of
grey, try throwing in a couple of black and white pieces as well, awsome! not
only that, but you can still get the assorted grey bricks from LEGO, and not all
that bad of a price, when you consider the free shipping, and no sales tax,
(thats a big savings in NY!).
> And for the Factory, they started with Town. So what! It seems like everytime
> TLG starts some initiative (for the AFOL community) there are always people who
> whine about it. Oh what about castle or what about space or what about this or
> that. Heck they cannot do everything at once for everyone. Besides Town has
> been ignored for quite a number of years.
> Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
> Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or dozens
> of other colors).
YES, and all these new pieces and colors make great contrast for buildings. just
go into your town, and take a closer look, do you see 8 colors? I don't, I see
thousands!
> But some people just are caught up in always looking at the
> negative.
>
> TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's case,
> trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
> years.
case in point, I just stopped in at walgreens, and bought several sets at
retail, (I haven't done that in a while!), and ended up paying just over $.01
per piece. not junk, either, I think I'm going to hold onto 80% of them for
future use. thats my two cents, Darren
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
| |
First off, the color change thing. OK, it’s a done deal.
People GET OVER IT!!!! If you don’t like Lego anymore, then fine. Just
leave it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging the
rest of us!
|
Amen!
| |
P.S. Jake, I know that some days you ask yourself if all this is worth it,
well you have my (and a lot of other AFOLs) heartfelt thanks for what you are
trying to doing for us. God bless you.
|
I second, third, fourth and fifth that! Your job must be hell at times, no
thanks to us whiney fans of LEGO. You have my heartfelt thanks.
And that is all I have to say.
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> 4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK about how TLG
> is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it. It never did make it to
> KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego Direct was announced. So they
> certainly did heard us.
In my opionion, Lego direct is inferior to the old service leaflets you used to
be able to get. Under the old system you used to be able to buy, in small
qauntites, virtually any Technic part you wanted. Now you have to buy a whole
'service pack' which is over priced, contains many parts you don't want and has
genrally been juniorized.
>
> Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
> Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or dozens
> of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking at the
> negative.
>
> TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's case,
> trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
> years.
>
> For someone who has been involved with Lego for 44 years, I have to tell the
> rest of you this: For a long time no one has been more critical of TLG than I
> have, and for good reason (I actually purchased 90 copies of one $5 set in 1987
> only to get the 4 yellow windows out of each set).
>
> But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that Lego
> has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right now,
> and it is getting better!
No it's not, it's getting worse. I'm totally biased towards technic, but the
whole range is going down the crapper. At least last year we had the Jcb with
ten pnumatic cylinders, this year the only two main models are a rubbish truck
and a jeep which doesn't do much. You can get a re-issued pnumatic crane as
well, but it'd be cheaper second hand off Ebay.
I'll go to bricklink and Ebay to my parts from now on.
Steve
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In lugnet.lego, Steve Lane wrote:
> In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
>
> > 4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK about how TLG
> > is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it. It never did make it to
> > KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego Direct was announced. So they
> > certainly did heard us.
>
>
> In my opionion, Lego direct is inferior to the old service leaflets you used to
> be able to get. Under the old system you used to be able to buy, in small
> qauntites, virtually any Technic part you wanted. Now you have to buy a whole
> 'service pack' which is over priced, contains many parts you don't want and has
> genrally been juniorized.
>
> >
> > Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
> > Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or dozens
> > of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking at the
> > negative.
> >
> > TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's case,
> > trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
> > years.
> >
> > For someone who has been involved with Lego for 44 years, I have to tell the
> > rest of you this: For a long time no one has been more critical of TLG than I
> > have, and for good reason (I actually purchased 90 copies of one $5 set in 1987
> > only to get the 4 yellow windows out of each set).
> >
> > But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that Lego
> > has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right now,
> > and it is getting better!
>
> No it's not, it's getting worse. I'm totally biased towards technic, but the
> whole range is going down the crapper. At least last year we had the Jcb with
> ten pnumatic cylinders, this year the only two main models are a rubbish truck
> and a jeep which doesn't do much. You can get a re-issued pnumatic crane as
> well, but it'd be cheaper second hand off Ebay.
>
> I'll go to bricklink and Ebay to my parts from now on.
>
> Steve
Steve,
I agree with you on the Technic argument. I personally haven't liked Town since
the 1970's, but others don't see it that way. Around 1980 I started to build
MOCs. Granted a lot of AFOL's prefer to build mostly what the company comes out
with. But I am like many other AFOLs prefer to build MOCs. I really like
Bricklink for the opportunity it gives us to buy more of the items from "the
good old days", whenever that was (it is different for each of us). Town today
is a shell of its' former self. I know that space people are not happy. And as
you stated Technic is not what it once was. But I think in a sense that all
Lego System have gone thru the "doldrums". Can we as AFOLs change that? I
doubt it. Perhaps we are asking or expecting more of Lego Direct than their
mandate allows.
As we can see the Lego train system is where a lot of attention has gone lately.
Usually what is good for train, is good also for town (as can be seen with a lot
of MOCs using train windows as town building windows).
When I see a new set, I look at its "harvesting" potential, what good spare
parts I can get out of it for use in MOCs. Where I see potential, others see
disappointment. And I can understand that. But I have never expected TLG to
give me sets that I WANT, or that I know what others will want . That would be
very presuptuous of me. I am just glad that they are getting the scarcer parts
out to Bricklink.
I just think that rehashing the same old discussion about the color change over
and over again (how many months has it been since we found out?) gets to be
counterproductive.
Again, I was stating "this is the best time to be an AFOL", from a "parts for
MOC" point of view, and not from a point of view of the sets that TLG is
producing (like I said, I haven't been pleased with the stuff they have produced
since the 1970's). I should have made that clarification.
Gary Istok
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Steve, iv'e got your back man. I remember walking into a lego shop (in sydney)
when i was a kid and purchacing the most obscure pieces, ie, the 2x1 tap peice
required to build the distributor on the 8860. service packs don't have the bits
i want. I have over 200 technic sets, don't realy have the time for much else.
the colour change didn't realy affect me although i have a few 3/4 pins a bit
bleyer now.
The problem is they now make some pieces in only one colour !
I don't want blue axle pins.
the 8440 had red axels, tops
the space shuttel had white axles, awesome.
now they only come in black (for even) and grey (for odd).
what would the spacies think if TLG made left wings black and right wings grey ?
I must say i agree "the range is going down the crapper", the jcb didn't overly
inpress me and this year, there is a bionicle air plane !
woo-hoo to all those castle fans who now have imperfect grey walls !
Ever tried to build a castle without studs ?
Jake, your doing a top job mate, i appreciate your work. If you choose to convey
my concerns, you have my permission to not convey my attitude.
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In lugnet.lego, Steve Dunn wrote:
> The problem is they now make some pieces in only one colour !
> I don't want blue axle pins.
> the 8440 had red axels, tops
> the space shuttel had white axles, awesome.
> now they only come in black (for even) and grey (for odd).
> what would the spacies think if TLG made left wings black and right wings grey ?
Your absolutely right, I've noticed this, it hasn't become a problem yet, but I
haven't been building much lately. These small parts will really stand out if
they're the wrong colour. Lego should only mould these invaluable parts in
neutral colors so they dont look out of place. Black and grey can be added to
most mocs without looking out of place but blue pins on a yellow excavator could
look terrible.
> I must say i agree "the range is going down the crapper", the jcb didn't overly
> inpress me and this year.
I have seven, but the later six we're going cheap, and I'll even buy studless
sets to get 10 pnumatic cylinders and related parts.
> there is a bionicle air plane !
Sacrilige!
Steve
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal.
> People GET OVER IT!!!!
Consider it a therapy for those among us who still retain a sense of color. Fact
is, the color change didn't help LEGO one bit. They just managed to alienate
many of their adult customers. And their other typical customers apparently
don't buy much LEGO anymore, anyway.
> Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, it will
> look real and not perfect.
Good bless the ignorant. I'm sure and dare to say you never really tried that!
> Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
That's true. I certainly never dreamed of having a selection of about two dozen
different elements each in light baby blue, pinky pink or pee yellow, just to
mention a few.
> But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that Lego
> has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right now,
> and it is getting better!
Well, the internet, Bricklink and LEGO Direct did improve our hobby
considerably, no doubts there. Especially LEGO Direct presented us with many
great sets during the last years, while at the same time the mother company did
her best to pull the rug out from under our feet by making so many stupid,
totally avoidable mistakes.
Anyway, there's not much room left for mistakes - mistakes like the duplo ->
explore -> duplo renaming issue (sales dropped by 50%, no kidding). I believe
many Lugnetters don't fully realize how desparate LEGO's financial situation has
become.
So, let the ranting go on. Consider it a life sign of LEGO. If one day there is
no ranting going on anymore, then you'll know LEGO has passed away ...
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Hello there
First off, AMEN! And offcourse, thank you for taking this up.
I think that the problems are the people whining about lego are the general
direction they've taken
the last couple of years, and see where it goes.
Off course TLC will have to "modernize" them selfs like everything else, but
this
also did go on behalf off the income.
Sure legendes and the sculputures are great, but the new sets dosent have so
much with
"traditional" lego as we used to know them.
And then again, people willing to spend their money on lego buys it
everywhere else like you said, bricklink, and
ebay, bricklit, and ads in the local news paper.
This is money lego could have had as income if they've had the product
matching the needed part or set or whatsoever.
For my sake, the last official set I bought was in 2002 the darth maul 10018
x 2,
and since then I've spent quite a lot of money on ebay and brincklink, thats
because TLC dosent offer anything that suits me, and my needs.
And since I can't use shop@home, I cant buy the few sets listed there that I
actually want.
Sure there are some parts and sets released after 2000 which is great, but
they dont appeal to me
because it misses some of the things I rembembered(?) lego to be.
And no matter what you say, I know the great majority are with me here.
Also the presentations in the shops has a great deal to with it, as the
situation are in Norway at the moment the stores
have only a little space for lego, and the sets spread around, well, it is
like I mentioned above.
So I think that if TLC will have a survive, they should go back in time and
see where things stopped.
just my thoughts for the moment.
sorry for any writing mistakes, and general gramatical errors, as english
isn't my native tounge.
best of regards
"Gary Istok" <istokg@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:I7GA8D.oz3@lugnet.com...
> Hi Jake,
>
> I NEVER get involved with controversial issues on LUGNET, but I couldn't • stay
> quiet any longer (or I might explode into a million minifig parts).
>
> First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal.
> People GET OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just
leave it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging the
rest of us!
>
> And don't make it sound like we (the rest of the AFOL community) are • behind you!
> They made a color change without our input. They admitted that in the • future
> they would consult with us. That sounds fine by me. I'm over it. I • still
> trust them. You can always buy more of the old stuff on Bricklink, and • besides
> Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, • it will
> look real and not perfect.
>
> And for the Factory, they started with Town. So what! It seems like • everytime
> TLG starts some initiative (for the AFOL community) there are always • people who
> whine about it. Oh what about castle or what about space or what about • this or
> that. Heck they cannot do everything at once for everyone. Besides Town • has
> been ignored for quite a number of years.
>
> 4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK about how • TLG
> is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it. It never did make • it to
> KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego Direct was announced. So they
> certainly did heard us.
>
> Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years • ago.
> Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or • dozens
> of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking at • the
> negative.
>
> TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's • case,
> trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
> years.
>
> For someone who has been involved with Lego for 44 years, I have to tell • the
> rest of you this: For a long time no one has been more critical of TLG • than I
> have, and for good reason (I actually purchased 90 copies of one $5 set in • 1987
> only to get the 4 yellow windows out of each set).
>
> But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years • that Lego
> has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right • now,
> and it is getting better!
>
> I've said enough!
>
> (Now where is that blood pressure medicine...)
>
> Gary Istok
>
> A Lego Addict since 1960.
>
> P.S. Jake, I know that some days you ask yourself if all this is worth it, • well
> you have my (and a lot of other AFOLs) heartfelt thanks for what you are • trying
> to doing for us. God bless you.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Thank you for addressing this. I was similarly irritated while reading some of
the responses to the universal color list. And was motivated to write a rude
response to some of the negative comments, but I knew that would not solve
anything.
I feel that for a toy company Lego has done a lot in recent years for their
adult users -- a group I should add, that is far from their target demographic.
Jake has clearly done a wonderful job and ... heck, I really do not mind the
color changes. Sure they discounted my favorite color, light grey, but there are
also many new and exciting colors to work with... like Maersk blue or dark grey.
Keep up the good work Jake, and thank you.
Brent Skadan
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Thanks for speaking up for the silent majority.
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In lugnet.lego, Rich Manzo wrote:
> Thanks for speaking up for the silent majority.
You're making assumptions about what the majority feels about this issue. It
would be wise for both sides of the debate to just speak for themselves.
Especially if you don't want to ignite a counterstatement.
And Gary, as I mentioned before, a sure way to fire up the color change
'complainers' is to suggest they should get over it, since this is not an issue
of the past. The new colors will stay, and even if you don't *want* to make a
fuss about it, it still is a practical annoyance today and tomorrow (depending
on the form of your LEGO hobby).
As long as the 'color change-indifferent' people acknowledge that there are
others for whom the color-change is a continuous practical annoyance (and not
just an old grudge), there is no need for them to speak out 'whiningly'
everytime it's suggested the problem is ancient history.
Follow-ups to lugnet.color
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> Hi Jake,
>
> I NEVER get involved with controversial issues on LUGNET, but I couldn't stay
> quiet any longer (or I might explode into a million minifig parts).
>
> First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal.
> People GET OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just leave it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging the rest of us!
I think you don't get it. It's about the attitude of LEGO towards its clients,
me, you, every AFOL and children. The Color change is more than just a color
issue, but even if it was, it's still too big to get over it easily.
> And don't make it sound like we (the rest of the AFOL community) are behind you!
> They made a color change without our input. They admitted that in the future
> they would consult with us. That sounds fine by me. I'm over it. I still
> trust them. You can always buy more of the old stuff on Bricklink, and besides
> Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, it will
> look real and not perfect.
Then go buy MegaCrap, they are far from being perfect! What about those of us
who were collecting hundreds of parts to build a giant sky-scraper in gray? Oh,
sorry, we're not castle-fan like you, so we don't count? Stop thinking about
yourself and look at the big picture.
>
> And for the Factory, they started with Town. So what! It seems like everytime
> TLG starts some initiative (for the AFOL community) there are always people who
> whine about it. Oh what about castle or what about space or what about this or
> that. Heck they cannot do everything at once for everyone. Besides Town has
> been ignored for quite a number of years.
It's not about the Factory website, but rather about the fact that Jake thinks
this will ease our pain about the color-change. It's got nothing to do with it
and Jake was all wrong. To be honest with you, I don't care about the Factory.
I don't have anything agaisnt it, it's a great gift to children.
> 4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK about how TLG
> is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it. It never did make it to
> KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego Direct was announced. So they
> certainly did heard us.
LEGO Direct was already about to get "out". Your letter had nothing to do with
it. But good initiative though. You should have fought to bring the letter to
KKK.
>
> Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
> Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or dozens
> of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking at the
> negative.
Again, not seeing the greater picture. You are blinded by your love for the
product and incapable of being objective.
> TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's case,
> trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
> years.
Agreed. Never said otherwise.
> For someone who has been involved with Lego for 44 years, I have to tell the
> rest of you this: For a long time no one has been more critical of TLG than I
> have, and for good reason (I actually purchased 90 copies of one $5 set in 1987
> only to get the 4 yellow windows out of each set).
We all do that sort of thing. Imagine that your yellow window was gray, that
you bought it in late 2003 and then, the next month, they were changed... Do
you start to understand why it is important for some of us? All you seem to
think about is your collection. I don't think about myself here, but about the
greater good. Jake is not part of it. Don't you realize that they have opened
a pandora box? What if they change something else next time? Like the kind of
plastic they use to make them cheaper to produce? That's probably about to
happen anyway, with their financial problems...
> But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that Lego
> has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right now,
> and it is getting better!
No more Space sets (SW is not about space, it's about a movie)
No more Town sets (except on S@H)
Castle sets that suck
Yeah, you're right, it's the best time ever.
> I've said enough!
>
> (Now where is that blood pressure medicine...)
>
> Gary Istok
>
> A Lego Addict since 1960.
>
> P.S. Jake, I know that some days you ask yourself if all this is worth it, well
> you have my (and a lot of other AFOLs) heartfelt thanks for what you are trying
> to doing for us. God bless you.
I'm sorry Gary. I've got nothing against you. You have a different opinion
than me and it's okay. I just think you, like al those who replied to your post
with "Amen" or "I second that", are not respecting the fact that those who
complain about the color-change don't do it for fun, but for the good of this
community, for the good of themselves (obviously) and for the love of the LEGO
hobby. We are as much entitled to talk about it (and not get oevr it) as you
are to ignore these posts. To tell us (as it has been said often in the past
months by many users) to stop talking about it and get over it is a total lack
of respect for us, for our opinion and for our freedom of expression. All of
you who seconded that motion are guilty of it. To me, This is far worst that
any whining about the color change.
Terry
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In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
> In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> > Hi Jake,
> >
> > I NEVER get involved with controversial issues on LUGNET, but I couldn't stay
> > quiet any longer (or I might explode into a million minifig parts).
> >
> > First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal.
> > People GET OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just leave it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging the rest of us!
>
> I think you don't get it. It's about the attitude of LEGO towards its clients,
> me, you, every AFOL and children. The Color change is more than just a color
> issue, but even if it was, it's still too big to get over it easily.
>
> > And don't make it sound like we (the rest of the AFOL community) are behind you!
> > They made a color change without our input. They admitted that in the future
> > they would consult with us. That sounds fine by me. I'm over it. I still
> > trust them. You can always buy more of the old stuff on Bricklink, and besides
> > Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, it will
> > look real and not perfect.
>
> Then go buy MegaCrap, they are far from being perfect! What about those of us
> who were collecting hundreds of parts to build a giant sky-scraper in gray? Oh,
> sorry, we're not castle-fan like you, so we don't count? Stop thinking about
> yourself and look at the big picture.
>
> >
> > And for the Factory, they started with Town. So what! It seems like everytime
> > TLG starts some initiative (for the AFOL community) there are always people who
> > whine about it. Oh what about castle or what about space or what about this or
> > that. Heck they cannot do everything at once for everyone. Besides Town has
> > been ignored for quite a number of years.
>
> It's not about the Factory website, but rather about the fact that Jake thinks
> this will ease our pain about the color-change. It's got nothing to do with it
> and Jake was all wrong. To be honest with you, I don't care about the Factory.
> I don't have anything agaisnt it, it's a great gift to children.
>
> > 4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK about how TLG
> > is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it. It never did make it to
> > KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego Direct was announced. So they
> > certainly did heard us.
>
> LEGO Direct was already about to get "out". Your letter had nothing to do with
> it. But good initiative though. You should have fought to bring the letter to
> KKK.
>
> >
> > Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
> > Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or dozens
> > of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking at the
> > negative.
>
> Again, not seeing the greater picture. You are blinded by your love for the
> product and incapable of being objective.
>
> > TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in Jake's case,
> > trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs in the previous 40
> > years.
>
> Agreed. Never said otherwise.
>
> > For someone who has been involved with Lego for 44 years, I have to tell the
> > rest of you this: For a long time no one has been more critical of TLG than I
> > have, and for good reason (I actually purchased 90 copies of one $5 set in 1987
> > only to get the 4 yellow windows out of each set).
>
> We all do that sort of thing. Imagine that your yellow window was gray, that
> you bought it in late 2003 and then, the next month, they were changed... Do
> you start to understand why it is important for some of us? All you seem to
> think about is your collection. I don't think about myself here, but about the
> greater good. Jake is not part of it. Don't you realize that they have opened
> a pandora box? What if they change something else next time? Like the kind of
> plastic they use to make them cheaper to produce? That's probably about to
> happen anyway, with their financial problems...
>
> > But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that Lego
> > has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right now,
> > and it is getting better!
>
> No more Space sets (SW is not about space, it's about a movie)
> No more Town sets (except on S@H)
> Castle sets that suck
>
> Yeah, you're right, it's the best time ever.
>
>
> > I've said enough!
> >
> > (Now where is that blood pressure medicine...)
> >
> > Gary Istok
> >
> > A Lego Addict since 1960.
> >
> > P.S. Jake, I know that some days you ask yourself if all this is worth it, well
> > you have my (and a lot of other AFOLs) heartfelt thanks for what you are trying
> > to doing for us. God bless you.
>
> I'm sorry Gary. I've got nothing against you. You have a different opinion
> than me and it's okay. I just think you, like al those who replied to your post
> with "Amen" or "I second that", are not respecting the fact that those who
> complain about the color-change don't do it for fun, but for the good of this
> community, for the good of themselves (obviously) and for the love of the LEGO
> hobby. We are as much entitled to talk about it (and not get oevr it) as you
> are to ignore these posts. To tell us (as it has been said often in the past
> months by many users) to stop talking about it and get over it is a total lack
> of respect for us, for our opinion and for our freedom of expression. All of
> you who seconded that motion are guilty of it. To me, This is far worst that
> any whining about the color change.
>
> Terry
Terry, I understand where you are coming from. And your message was received
with good intentions. But by bringing it up over and over again, the message
gets lost.
This was not the first time TLG made a major change. They did it twice before.
Once in 1957 when all of a sudden all the windows that Lego ever produced before
(from 1949-56) were no longer compatible with the "new" Lego of 1957. Back then
Lego windows didn't have studs on top but "wings" on the sides that fit into the
slotted bricks of the era. In 1957 they introduced bricks with no slots, and
windows with studs on top. So all that had come before were now useless.
A second time was in 1963 when ABS plastic replaced Cellulose Acetate. The
color of the red, yellow and blue bricks made of CA looked a lot different from
those produced afterwards.
Like I said Terry, no disrespect intended, but it is the repitition of your
message, and not the message itself that is getting annoying. (Just like I'm
sure people are getting tired of my repeated posts bemoaning the fact that TLG
has not had a "window" system since 1979.)
Repitition is great in architecture, but it should be used sparingly in
conversations. :-)
Gary Istok
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In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
> I'm sorry Gary. I've got nothing against you. You have a different opinion
> than me and it's okay. I just think you, like al those who replied to your post
> with "Amen" or "I second that", are not respecting the fact that those who
> complain about the color-change don't do it for fun, but for the good of this
> community, for the good of themselves (obviously) and for the love of the LEGO
> hobby.
Well you believe it will help the community, and obviously so do some others.
But just as obviously, there's a significant part of the community that
disagrees. They could be wrong. Equally, you could be wrong. More likely it's
somewhere in between, and everyone is a bit wrong. But saying you represent the
whole community is once again posting something demonstrably innaccurate, which
as I've said elsewhere, helps no-one. Keep on about it if you must, but please
don't continue to say you're doing it for the good of the community.
ROSCO
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| |
|
In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
> Then go buy MegaCrap, they are far from being perfect! What about those of us
> who were collecting hundreds of parts to build a giant sky-scraper in gray?
Lego still sells the old gray. They still sell bulk packs. Aren't you buying
them?
> It's not about the Factory website, but rather about the fact that Jake thinks
> this will ease our pain about the color-change.
Wrong. The factory is not intended to ease your color-change pain, and no one
(including Jake) is trying to pretend it is. It is possibly the start of a great
product/selling concept that Lego has hinted at for years. That is what the
excitement and enthusiasm is all about. Go back and read some of the Brickfest
keynote addresses from a few years ago if you just don't get what it's all
about.
> Don't you realize that they have opened
> a pandora box? What if they change something else next time? Like the kind of
> plastic they use to make them cheaper to produce? That's probably about to
> happen anyway, with their financial problems...
Then they will change it. They reserve the right to change whatever they want,
whenever they want, and however they want. You reserve the right to not buy it.
What's your point?
> To tell us (as it has been said often in the past
> months by many users) to stop talking about it and get over it is a total lack
> of respect for us, for our opinion and for our freedom of expression. All of
> you who seconded that motion are guilty of it. To me, This is far worst that
> any whining about the color change.
No, I would prefer if you'd stop playing bait-n-switch games here in
lugnet.lego. "Oh, it's not about the color change - it about how I don't get
what's so great about the Lego Factory", and then you proceed to go on your
usual rant attacking Lego and Jake over the color change.(1)
Please voice your color displeasure in the newsgroup specifically created for
color change issues: lugnet.color. Some of us here are interested in genuine
feedback on the Lego Factory concept and are not interested in your personal
problems with the TLC.
(1) http://news.lugnet.com/lego/?n=2620
Spencer
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I am a lurker (and have been for some six years), sadly. Partly due to time to
respond, partlt due to wanting to build, not gripe.
I appreciate your words - they were made before I could get off my rear and post
my own.
I have only been a follower since 1982 (not 1960) and I have watched things
happening from people like these nay-sayers. They gripe and only into the air,
not into the ears of those who will hear it. ...... All the while places like
Wal Mart are fading their LEGO AISLE into their LEGO half aisle into their LEGO
few shelves.
I stand behind any new or innovative idea that LEGO may have. And I pray that my
son, 3 years old, has as many new ideas, sets, bricks, and COLORS to chose from
and NOT brands.
I step down off the soap box now.
Gene
ps: thank you to Gerard Istok for getting out the word.
God Bless
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| |
|
In lugnet.lego, Gene Potter wrote:
> I step down off the soap box now.
> Gene
> ps: thank you to Gerard Istok for getting out the word.
> God Bless
*waves away the soap bubbles* You know what's even older than complaining, Gene?
It's complaining about complainers - especially if the complainers do have
pefectly valid points of concern. Your observations at WalMart indicate you have
at least one leg in reality, still you loyally chime in with the choir of
yes-and-amen sayers, doubtlessly humming some patriotic hymn to LEGO while
working your keyboard.
Maybe I missed your point, but the place for nay-sayers to do their insidious
nay-saying IS Lugnet. Thanks to the internet and LEGO Direct, TLG now DOES have
representatives listening. Even if they can't do much more than giving a bit of
input here and there at staff meetings.
So, contrary to unfinished letter-writing-campaigns, maybe for the first time in
the history of TLG a bit of pointed, even if ongoing rant here at Lugnet indeed
DOES have a very, very slight chance of reaching the right ears, and sorry for
inconveniencing any loyal old fan of LEGO.
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
Gary, I agree with a lot of your post, but there are a few things that I wanted
to comment on:
| |
Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed together, it
will look real and not perfect.
|
Well, yes, as long as the two shades are old gray and old dark gray. Basically,
while I agree that people should STFU about the color change--no one is forcing
us to spend money and time on Lego, after all--the fact is that mixing the old
and new grays in a large MOC really doesn’t work.
(I just re-read my above sentence and it seems a bit harsh, so let me clarify my
position on the color change--I don’t like it and have only bought six sets with
new gray. And while I’m still buying a decent amount of non-new gray sets, in
years past, six sets would work out to what I would buy in about three weeks.
However, I don’t obsess over the issue or expect Lego to change back. They can
do whatever they please, and I’ll make my purchasing decisions accordingly.
Worrying about the marketing decisions of a children’s toy company tells me that
one needs to spend more time volunteering in one’s community. Furthermore,
throwing Jake under the bus for this is tantamount to blaming a musician onboard
the Titanic for hitting the iceberg. And only a cynic of, well, titanic
proportions would accuse me of drawing a parallel between Jake and the guys whom
continued to play their instruments in service to their institution while the
ship went down.)
| |
And for the Factory, they started with Town. So what! It seems like
everytime TLG starts some initiative (for the AFOL community) there are always
people who whine about it. Oh what about castle or what about space or what
about this or that. Heck they cannot do everything at once for everyone.
Besides Town has been ignored for quite a number of years.
|
I agree wholeheartedly. Even if I’m not excited by what the factory offers
right now, the mere premise of it should make all AFOL hearts flutter.
| |
Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4 years ago.
Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue in Bricklink (or
dozens of other colors). But some people just are caught up in always looking
at the negative.
|
Well, I for one am very glad that Lego is finally cutting the number of colors
in the palate--my only complaint is that they aren’t going far enough (roughly
120 to 60, I believe). I would much rather have only 20 colors (but
available in every part) than 100 colors of which over 75% only come in a
ridiculously tiny variety of parts. Seems that would be quite a bit cheaper for
Lego, too...
And while I love the idea of the “spring cleaning” sets, I’ve seen 52 distinct
colors come out of them! And yes, most of them are only in one or two shapes,
which makes it more difficult--but not impossible, of course--to base a MOC
around them (FYI, I don’t consider these ‘new gray’ sets, since from what I’ve
seen, there is almost no new gray in them).
As for Bricklink, while it is a great resource (despite the fact that I
personally use it sparingly), it has nothing to do with Lego, the company. In
fact, it should probably be considered an indictment of TLG; Bricklink is very
ably filling a void that the company is only now starting to exploit via PAB.
So yes, I would agree that Bricklink is wildly successful and it has part of the
credit for numerous high-quality MOCs. However, don’t make the mistake of
praising TLG for Bricklink.
| |
But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that
Lego has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right
now, and it is getting better!
|
You are right about this, but as I mentioned above, it isn’t all due to the
actions of the company...the AFOL community is really what makes it great (yes,
I’ve drunk the WAMALUG Kool-Aid since moving to DC). Of course, the company has
improved drastically in a number of areas, especially with regards to sets
created specifically for adults (three letters for anyone who argues this point:
ISD). And while the “classic” lines have been eviscerated (IMHO, town, space,
and castle are deader than dead right now), that really doesn’t have as great an
impact on AFOLs as most people seem to think. After all, I can get 30 great
castle windows from a handful of Harry Potter sets as easily as from actual
castle sets.
| |
P.S. Jake, I know that some days you ask yourself if all this is worth it,
well you have my (and a lot of other AFOLs) heartfelt thanks for what you are
trying to doing for us. God bless you.
|
Yes, anyone who disparages Jake and his efforts is blind. The idea that one man
who doesn’t even work at the company’s continental headquarters (much less the
worldwide HQ) could make the company focus on adults overnight (overnight equals
less than five years for a company this old) is ludicrous. Jake, keep fighting
the good fight.
Derek
PS of my own--pardon my overly long and rambling prose, I’m very sleep-deprived
right now and that lends a certain ponderousness to my already formidably
overwrought writing style.
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
| |
But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55 years that
Lego has been on this planet, there is no better time to be an AFOL than right
now, and it is getting better!
|
At the risk of adding being a “me-too”, let me add my voice of appreciation. Now
is definitely the best time to be an AFOL. And I can’t wait to see what 2005
brings.
The grey cloud on the horizon - in my part of the world, retailers are devoting
less and less shelf space to Lego. I buy the “kids have changed” story to
explain part of this. This definitely explains the (relative) demise of Technic.
But many retailers are expanding MegaBloks at the expense of Lego. Others have
seen this movement in their parts of the world too.
And the thing about MegaBloks is that from the point of view of AFOLs, its
mostly horrrible! Lower quality of bricks, a colour palette that changes daily,
juniorisation taken to extreme levels. (I liked the emphasis on building in
their Pro Builder series, but these sets are from my AFOL perspective inferior
to the Designer sets which have come out in the last 2 years)
So if MegaBloks is growing and its unattractive for AFOLS, and Lego is
shrinking and its (relatively) attractive for AFOLS - it should be a
reminder for AFOLs that their concerns/obsessions are not the same as those of
the mass market.
So here’s a way to think about it: Allow me to coin a new phrase - OBOL “Other
Buyers of Lego” - kids, parents, aunts etc.
Category 1: Important/interesting/good for both AFOLs and OBOLs
Category 2: Important/interesting/good for AFOLs but not OBOLs
Category 3: Important/interesting/good for OBOLs but not for AFOLs
Category 4: Unimportant/bad for both OBOLs and AFOLs
When opinionating, please try to consider and reconsider what category your
rant really falls into.
I think Jake and TLG is doing an incredible job of balancing the needs of
AFOLs with their core market. I just hope they manage to hold onto their core
market well enough to survive until my daughter’s 14th birthday. Hmmmn. No,
let’s say til my grandson’s 14th birthday!
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| |
|
Gary Istok wrote:
> First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal. People GET
> OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just leave
> it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging
> the rest of us!
Telling other people to shut up when they voice valid concerns is not a
very democratic attitude.
> And don't make it sound like we (the rest of the AFOL community) are
> behind you! They made a color change without our input. They
> admitted that in the future they would consult with us. That sounds
> fine by me. I'm over it. I still trust them.
I wish you (and therefor all of us) good luck that your trust will not
be broken by the next "great" idea from upper management. BTW, I've got
a nice bridge to sell, really cheap!
> You can always buy more of the old stuff on Bricklink, and besides
> Lego castles will look much better with 2 shades of gray mixed
> together, it will look real and not perfect.
Sounds like you never actually tried it.
> 4 years ago on Lugnet I started a letter writing campaign to KKK
> about how TLG is ignoring us. That letter got 126 AFOL names on it.
> It never did make it to KKK, because the next thing we know, Lego
> Direct was announced. So they certainly did heard us.
I'd daresay "Most obviously, not." The colour change fiasco is one of
the best examples: "Lego was not aware of the AFOLs at this time".
> Today we can buy Lego elements in colors we never even dreamed of 4
> years ago. Today I can buy dozens of different parts in Maersk Blue
> in Bricklink (or dozens of other colors). But some people just are
> caught up in always looking at the negative.
Yea. I can buy ten shades of pinkish geen-orange lilac now. GREAT! The
even introduced new colours sind the bley desaster. But they are too
inflexible to return to the old grey.
> TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in
> Jake's case, trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs
> in the previous 40 years.
Yea, I admit that I really belive by now that Jake is trying. The
problem is: what is he actually achieving? This is the one and only
factor to judge a result on.
> But since 2001 I have now come to this realization.... in the 55
> years that Lego has been on this planet, there is no better time to
> be an AFOL than right now, and it is getting better!
There seems to be a certain distortion in your perception. Yes,
communication - on a certain level - has improved. Most of the rest went
absolutely downhill in the last years, though. The list of topics where
the performance of Lego dropped since 2001 is about as long as my arm.
In small print.
yours, Christian
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| |
|
> > TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in
> > Jake's case, trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs
> > in the previous 40 years.
> Yea, I admit that I really belive by now that Jake is trying. The
> problem is: what is he actually achieving? This is the one and only
> factor to judge a result on.
Is Jake achieving? Are you joking?
Maybe you're just not going to BrickFest, ever reading Jake's posts or
interacting with TLG at all - but I'd say Jake isn't just doing something..
Jake is doing A LOT!
And by that, I mean >achieving< results, not just spinning wheels.
But the one thing I see that he is not achieving, is winning the complete trust
of AFOLs - but then, I have to wonder if that is really possible. It seems more
and more to me that there is a contingent of AFOLs and Lugnet that refuses to be
satisfied unless everyone else stops and cow-tows to their every demand. Well,
aint gonna happen.
I am a proud friend and supporter of Jake. I am thoroughly impressed by his
continual love and devotion to the LEGO Fan community, even despite continual
attacks against his person.
-Lenny
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| |
|
Leonard Hoffman wrote:
> Is Jake achieving? Are you joking?
Not joking. Only raising a point.
> Maybe you're just not going to BrickFest, ever reading Jake's posts or
> interacting with TLG at all - but I'd say Jake isn't just doing something..
No, never went to BrickFest. Too far. Yes, communicated and discussed a
lot of things with him, and talked to him personally, of course, when he
was over here. TLG interacting? Now you're joking...
> Jake is doing A LOT!
> And by that, I mean >achieving< results, not just spinning wheels.
Yes, he achieved some things. I never denied that. But he has to fight
an extremely dumb, fat and slow corporate juggernaut. So his chances to
move something from "want" to "have" are quite low in this company. I
appreciate him for trying this, though. And I'll try to help him
wherever I can. Even (and especially) by voicing concers in the open.
> But the one thing I see that he is not achieving, is winning the complete trust
> of AFOLs - but then, I have to wonder if that is really possible. It seems more
> and more to me that there is a contingent of AFOLs and Lugnet that refuses to be
> satisfied unless everyone else stops and cow-tows to their every demand. Well,
> aint gonna happen.
It is indeed hard to trust Jake. He is an employee of TLC, and he is
bound by agreements which prevent him from open communication with us.
It is not his fault that trusting a person such bound is next to
impossible. This is nothing personal against Jake, it is just an nearly
mathematical assessment of a trust level based on the surrounding factors.
> I am a proud friend and supporter of Jake. I am thoroughly impressed by his
> continual love and devotion to the LEGO Fan community, even despite continual
> attacks against his person.
As I said, I don't attack him. Indeed, I feel deeply sorry for Jake to
have to cope with us and that company and wish him all the best not to
get ground between the two.
yours, Christian
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| |
|
In lugnet.lego, Christian Treczoks wrote:
> Leonard Hoffman wrote:
> > Is Jake achieving? Are you joking?
> Not joking. Only raising a point.
And what point is that? The point is only worthwhile if Jake hasn't done
anything - and the reality is that he has done something. He's done a lot.
>
> > Maybe you're just not going to BrickFest, ever reading Jake's posts or
> > interacting with TLG at all - but I'd say Jake isn't just doing something..
> No, never went to BrickFest. Too far. Yes, communicated and discussed a
> lot of things with him, and talked to him personally, of course, when he
> was over here. TLG interacting? Now you're joking...
No I am not. By TLG interacting, I refer to talking with a few marketing
represetatives, or store managers, or product development persons, not to
mention various model builders, etc. I've done all of this and it is 100%
because of Jake. Christina Hitchcock, Steve Barile, and Holger Matthes have
actually met and spoken with Kjeld himself.
http://www.holgermatthes.de/bricks/pics_billund/05_kkk1.jpg
So.. how exactly is interacting with TLG a joke?
> > Jake is doing A LOT!
> > And by that, I mean >achieving< results, not just spinning wheels.
> Yes, he achieved some things. I never denied that. But he has to fight
> an extremely dumb, fat and slow corporate juggernaut. So his chances to
> move something from "want" to "have" are quite low in this company. I
> appreciate him for trying this, though. And I'll try to help him
> wherever I can. Even (and especially) by voicing concers in the open.
And this exactly is what makes Jake's accomplishments even more amazing.
>
> > But the one thing I see that he is not achieving, is winning the complete trust
> > of AFOLs - but then, I have to wonder if that is really possible. It seems more
> > and more to me that there is a contingent of AFOLs and Lugnet that refuses to be
> > satisfied unless everyone else stops and cow-tows to their every demand. Well,
> > aint gonna happen.
> It is indeed hard to trust Jake. He is an employee of TLC, and he is
> bound by agreements which prevent him from open communication with us.
> It is not his fault that trusting a person such bound is next to
> impossible. This is nothing personal against Jake, it is just an nearly
> mathematical assessment of a trust level based on the surrounding factors.
Odd, I don't find it difficult to trust Jake at all. He seems logical,
rational, level-headed. I find it more difficult to NOT trust Jake.
We are all bound from complete & open communication. There is a lot of
information that TLG can't tell us right now. But there is a very clear
difference between 100% full disclosure and trust. "Trust" means when Jake says
something, you believe it. And I don't see how Jake working for a company
necessarily means we can't trust him.
> > I am a proud friend and supporter of Jake. I am thoroughly impressed by his
> > continual love and devotion to the LEGO Fan community, even despite continual
> > attacks against his person.
> As I said, I don't attack him. Indeed, I feel deeply sorry for Jake to
> have to cope with us and that company and wish him all the best not to
> get ground between the two.
I think the best way to make it easier on Jake is to not be a continual thorn in
his side by questioning his trustworthiness, his committment to AFOLs and his
achievements within the company.
-Lenny
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In lugnet.lego, Christian Treczoks wrote:
| |
It is indeed hard to trust Jake. He is an employee of TLC, and he is
bound by agreements which prevent him from open communication with us.
It is not his fault that trusting a person such bound is next to
impossible.
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I have not seen one scrap of evidence that Jake or anyone else at TLC has been
dishonest at any point in time.
And what’s more...
FACT: The toy industry is cut-throat, competitive, season-driven.
FACT: TLC is a privately held company.
FACT: When a company admits to a mistake, it opens itself to litigation from
stakeholders.
FACT: AFOLs on LUGNET have a history at finding, spreading and discussing
sensitive information that I am sure TLC would rather have keep secret.
Conclusion: I am surprised at how much Jake has been allowed to share by TLC,
and I am sure that he must put a lot of work into “managing upwards” to be
allowed to share as much as he does.
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In lugnet.lego, Christian Treczoks wrote:
> Gary Istok wrote:
> > First off, the color change thing. OK, it's a done deal. People GET
> > OVER IT!!!! If you don't like Lego anymore, then fine. Just leave
> > it to your nephews or nieces and buy Megablocks, and quit bugging
> > the rest of us!
> Telling other people to shut up when they voice valid concerns is not a
> very democratic attitude.
>
>
> yours, Christian
Christian, I did not tell people to shut up. What I am saying is that last week
it has been ONE YEAR since this came out. ONE YEAR!!! Isn't it time to stop
the grieving process over the old gray. You can still get the parts from the
company or from Bricklink. So why complain, you can STILL BUY THE PIECES!
This whole gray brick thing reminds me of a movie I saw recently that came out
in the 1990's. It is called AVALON. It is part comedy, and is about 4 Jewish
brothers who with their children and grandchildren are a close knit family.....
that is until one Thanksgiving when they get together and they cut the
Thanksgiving turkey when one of the 4 brothers hasn't arrived yet. The entire
last half of the movie revolves around the bitter feud that happens because
"THEY CUT THE TURKEY WITHOUT ME!" And everytime there is an argument it gets
back to that turkey. It shows how stubborn people can be. Go see the movie (it
is out in VHS and DVD), you might agree.
And yes I have seen buildings with multiple colors in the walls. The 1963-65
cardboard box spare parts packs #518-#521 (small plates) show a Swiss Chalet
whose walls are made of white, black and old gray plates. It looks pretty nice.
I am just afraid that some Lego vice president (not Brad) might logon to Lugnet
and see all this ungratefulness, and say "enough, pull the plug on Lego Direct,
those people don't appreciate anything!"
That is why I posted here. To say that most of us are grateful. There are just
a few who aren't.
Gary Istok
A grateful Lego Addict since 1960.
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> That is why I posted here. To say that most of us are grateful. There are just
> a few who aren't.
>
> Gary Istok
>
> A grateful Lego Addict since 1960.
I just wanted to clarify this, just because you don't like the color change, it
doesn't make you ungrateful. I can fully understand those folks who are into
space and castle and perhaps are reminded every day about how they pick or
choose what part they are going to build with because they may be using the
wrong color of gray. I can relate to that frustration.
It is those who try to tell Jake he's not doing a good job....etc, that I am
frustrated with. Especially when they use the gray color fiasco as an argument
towards that end.
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In lugnet.lego, Gerhard R. Istok wrote:
> I am just afraid that some Lego vice president (not Brad) might logon to Lugnet
> and see all this ungratefulness, and say "enough, pull the plug on Lego Direct,
> those people don't appreciate anything!"
They pulled the plug on LEGO Direct a year ago when Brad left. They reorganized
and broke LEGO Direct up, spreading parts into various sections of the company.
It's a good thing - LEGO Direct was a successful experiment so the entire
company is trying to move in that direction.
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In lugnet.lego, William R. Ward wrote:
> They pulled the plug on LEGO Direct a year ago when Brad left. They reorganized
> and broke LEGO Direct up, spreading parts into various sections of the company.
> It's a good thing - LEGO Direct was a successful experiment so the entire
> company is trying to move in that direction.
Just to clarify, LEGO Direct always had a limited time directive. The purpose
was to run outside the "corporate structure" long enough to get up and running,
then start to integrate the unit (and thus the ideas) into the organization
overall.
Brad left well after LEGO Direct had started to break into smaller pieces and be
moved into their more "permenant" parts of the organization.
And as a related side note, when we first started talking about the right way to
integrate LEGO Direct into the organization at large, we developed the Community
Development Team. I moved onto this team from day one, where I could then
dedicate my full-time job to the AFOL community work (rather than it being my
"other full-time job" as I liked to joke).
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Liaison
LEGO Community Development
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Christian,
First off, I've observed several times that no matter what TLG does, you're not
going to be happy. I like to say "you can be part of the problem, or part of
the solution". So far, I only see you are part of the problem. All I hear is
gripe, gripe, gripe, and blame, blame, blame out of you.
Have you ever come up with ideas on how to improve things, and perhaps e-mailed
Jake privately?
There's a saying that says "making lemonade out of lemons". That means learning
to take the situation you've got, and make the best of it. You can't get orange
juice from lemons. However, you can get lemonade. You don't like lemonade?
Well, who ever said life was fair? Deal with it. (this goes for those that
gripe endlessly about the color change--welcome to a "tough love" education on
the forces of capitalism and business).
I work in international business. I've found that there are very different
ideas and methods that differ from continent to continent. For a private
company to keep this going, and for so long, is a testament to Lego in general.
Is Lego trying to improve? yes.
Do they care about their customers? I certainly like to think so.
Is there still a high quality in the production of plastic bricks? yes.
(although you may debate the quality of color mixes--believe me, it's not as
easy as it sounds to get a repeatable and stable color mix, especially with
color suppliers--I've worked in plastics manufacturing where color was
involved). Quick SPC (Statistical Process Control) lesson. Every product, when
manufactured, has an acceptable range of quality. Sometimes it's good,
sometimes it's on the low end. The process has to be tweaked continually.
Given the fact that (as I understand) most of the molding machines are
automated, it's difficult to sit on one machine and continually watch the color
(not to mention staring at one color for too long a period will make your eyes
go crazy--trust me, when looking at two white parts and trying to determine
which one is "whiter" can really mess you up).
Does Lego make mistakes? Show me a company that doesn't--everybody makes
mistakes.
Does Jake run Lego? Hell no. So stop blaming Jake for every time he makes a
statement from Lego. Jake is trying to be a true liason and keep the AFOL's
informed. Are there things Jake can't tell us? Tell me how long anybody who
works for a company who divulges company secrets will be there. I'm sure that
there are parts of whatever company you work for that you can't talk about.
That's part of being a professional.
If all you ever do is badmouth Jake, he's probably not going to take your
concerns to heart. Just like the cliche "you catch more flies with honey than
with water". It's amazing how much you achieve when you are nice and rational
about things.
> Yea. I can buy ten shades of pinkish geen-orange lilac now. GREAT! The
> even introduced new colours sind the bley desaster. But they are too
> inflexible to return to the old grey.
Maybe they can't get the old grey from suppliers any more. There is a very
large ISO and environmental standards push to make things more environmentally
safe. Maybe part of the process of making the old grey (and not from a TLG
standpoint-but maybe a color supplier production standpoint) was stopped because
of it? Yes, it's possible speculation on my part, and we may never know the
"real" story behind it. We don't know the market forces causing those changes,
and it's best not to make statements on things one doesn't fully understand. In
the end, it just makes one self look a little uninformed and stupid.
> > TLG is not perfect, neither is Jake. But they are trying (and in
> > Jake's case, trying very hard). That is more than TLG did for AFOLs
> > in the previous 40 years.
> Yea, I admit that I really belive by now that Jake is trying. The
> problem is: what is he actually achieving? This is the one and only
> factor to judge a result on.
If you read any of Jake's talk from Brickfest 2004, you would see that he's made
great strides internally from people not even paying attention to him, to people
asking him about things. One must crawl before they learn to walk, and then to
run. (From dealing in international business, I've found that European
companies are usually the slowest to respond to change.)
I understand that you are very critical of TLG, but at the same time, you
probably need to understand the market forces that TLG is under. Do I have
ideas for sets? I sure do. Have I hit walls with the ideas? Sure have. Does
that mean I go into a public forum and rant away? Nope. Does it mean I pick
myself up, and try a different route and keep pushing? Yep.
One must pick and choose battles, and know where to place the ammo for maximum
effect. If you launch a shell into the water, it only kills the fish, not the
army that's coming at you from the other direction....
I understand your feelings, but the way you've been voicing them, they tend to
upset more people in a negative feeling than being sympathetic to your needs,
and that is just giving an overall negative effect.
Scott Lyttle
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Scott Lyttle wrote:
> First off, I've observed several times that no matter what TLG does, you're not
> going to be happy. I like to say "you can be part of the problem, or part of
> the solution". So far, I only see you are part of the problem. All I hear is
> gripe, gripe, gripe, and blame, blame, blame out of you.
Sorry that I gave you a wrong impression. One important point is that I
am very straightforward - When I consider something to be a mistake, I
say so. Because the worst thing to do with a mistake is to ignore it in
the hope it might just go away one day. Believe me, it won't. And there
are a lot of mistakes recently to gripe about. The other point is that
you obviously read only the wrong half of my postings...
> Have you ever come up with ideas on how to improve things, and perhaps e-mailed
> Jake privately?
Yes. Several times, on several issues. I offered and gave help and
results (e.g. I translated Jakes announcement for foreign readers, etc).
My main contact person is not Jake, though, as he is responsible for
your side of the pond, not mine ;-) I even communicated with Lego way
before there was a Jake, Kate or Jan to talk to.
> I work in international business. I've found that there are very different
> ideas and methods that differ from continent to continent. For a private
> company to keep this going, and for so long, is a testament to Lego in general.
I work in an international Business, too. And I noticed that Lego, a
company with a product portfolio deeply connected to European style of
living and playing, is struggling very much - too much actually - on the
American market. It is abandoning its European customers now while not
winning American ones, and wasting a lot of resources on both markets by
ignoring the differences. This might soon lead to the use of the word
"testament" in an undesireable way, though.
> Is Lego trying to improve? yes.
Yes, they are. And success is showing. But I doubt that the current rate
of successes vs. failures is getting better, given the fundamental
problems the company fails to address again and again.
> Do they care about their customers? I certainly like to think so.
As I said, they are trying to appeal to the American market, and
increasingly fail to appeal to the rest of the world. Up until the bley
upheaval, they even did not know about AFOLs (except for some borderline
figures in the company), a group of customers that were actually hard to
miss with all their presence and devotion if anyone cared to look.
> Is there still a high quality in the production of plastic bricks? yes.
This I seriously doubt. Wherever I look, be it complaint rates about
defect/incomplete sets, breaking bricks, toleraces increasing, colour
quality issues (Did you really miss the knight bus fiasco?), the quality
went downhill in the last year. Quality is expensive, and with the
pricing level they try to achive in the US (Just today someone in a
german discussion griped about a set being _thrice_ the price here than
in the US!), they have to cut costs. And they certainly did.
> (although you may debate the quality of color mixes--believe me, it's not as
> easy as it sounds to get a repeatable and stable color mix, especially with
> color suppliers--I've worked in plastics manufacturing where color was
> involved). Quick SPC (Statistical Process Control) lesson. Every product, when
> manufactured, has an acceptable range of quality. Sometimes it's good,
> sometimes it's on the low end. The process has to be tweaked continually.
> Given the fact that (as I understand) most of the molding machines are
> automated, it's difficult to sit on one machine and continually watch the color
> (not to mention staring at one color for too long a period will make your eyes
> go crazy--trust me, when looking at two white parts and trying to determine
> which one is "whiter" can really mess you up).
This is one little part of the problem, although modern technology
(Colour calibration systems) can easily take care of this, and
automatically reconfigure a such a process to minimize rejects.
For me, the REAL problem was the way they handled e.g. the Knight Bus
issue by basically stating that the majority of their customers wer too
dumb or to lazy to complain about an obvious mistake, thus making it
none. If you, the customer, were to complain about this, it was you who
was to nitpicky. Customer, go F*** yourself.
> Does Lego make mistakes? Show me a company that doesn't--everybody makes
> mistakes.
Yes, any entity is prone to mistakes. And admitting that one or a
company made a mistake is actually a very honorably act rarely seen.
Other companies that make mistakes try to hide them (bad) or try to fix
them, without drawing too much attention to it (OK). But admitting a
mistake and telling your customers "well, you've got to live with our
mistake, as we don't care fixing it" is IMHO the worst a company can do.
> Does Jake run Lego? Hell no. So stop blaming Jake for every time he makes a
> statement from Lego. Jake is trying to be a true liason and keep the AFOL's
> informed. Are there things Jake can't tell us? Tell me how long anybody who
> works for a company who divulges company secrets will be there. I'm sure that
> there are parts of whatever company you work for that you can't talk about.
> That's part of being a professional.
I don't blame him. If you had read my posts about Jake, you'd know that
I a) appreciate what he is trying to achieve, b) don't trust him like I
would trust a friend, because he is bound not to be fully open (it is
not his fault, and it by no way meant negative. I want this to be read
as a neutral, purely mathematical determination of a trust level. When
he says something, it might be true. Or it might be what he got told to
be true without getting the necessary background information), and c) I
dislike some of his ways to communicate (and have told him so, because
other people disliked these ways, too, and he has improved from thereon).
So I blame _him_ only for _his_ mistakes, like some communication
problems he caused (and later rectified). I don't blame him for the
stupidity of the corporate juggernaut behind him.
> If all you ever do is badmouth Jake, he's probably not going to take your
> concerns to heart. Just like the cliche "you catch more flies with honey than
> with water". It's amazing how much you achieve when you are nice and rational
> about things.
As I said, my basic attitude to Jake is neutral (with some grains of
salt applied to everything he says officially, as I would with every
corporate information outlet). And being a slobbering dog at the heels
of the master, like some other people in this discussion, is not my kind
of thing. Being straightforward and open has proven to be better on the
long run than saying "Yes, Master" and "Of course, Master".
To those who worship "Holy Saint Jake of the Brick" I'd like to give the
reminder that Jake is still human and hasn't been seen levitating in a
glowing halo recently ;-)
> > Yea. I can buy ten shades of pinkish geen-orange lilac now. GREAT! The
> > even introduced new colours sind the bley desaster. But they are too
> > inflexible to return to the old grey.
> Maybe they can't get the old grey from suppliers any more. There is a very
> large ISO and environmental standards push to make things more environmentally
> safe. Maybe part of the process of making the old grey (and not from a TLG
> standpoint-but maybe a color supplier production standpoint) was stopped because
> of it? Yes, it's possible speculation on my part, and we may never know the
> "real" story behind it. We don't know the market forces causing those changes,
> and it's best not to make statements on things one doesn't fully understand. In
> the end, it just makes one self look a little uninformed and stupid.
Well, all these points you just raised about the colour change would be
valid, and even acceptable reasons - and have all beend denied by Lego.
What they told us did not make sense to a lot of people. The main
reasons given were "Good Thinking" and "test groups liked the new
colours more". That the Good Thinking not even involved consultation
with the Legoland model builders sheds a bad light on what they call
"Good". The whole story sounds fishy and incomplete, and this is the big
nagging point. This is one big "Not caring about the customer" issue.
> If you read any of Jake's talk from Brickfest 2004, you would see that he's made
> great strides internally from people not even paying attention to him, to people
> asking him about things. One must crawl before they learn to walk, and then to
> run. (From dealing in international business, I've found that European
> companies are usually the slowest to respond to change.)
The problem is that Jake has to fight internally, that he has to make us
known within the company at all.
And concerning your impression of European companies being slow: just
consider that any European company you are dealing with in America will
have a certain size. And you have to deal with a lot of smaller American
companies, too. But the speed of response to change is primarily a
function of size, thus giving you the impression that we are slower.
Pushing IBM or GeneralFoods into a certain direction is propably not
faster or slower that pushing Siemens or Daimler. And of course, your
"Joes Garage" around the corner is about as flexible to customers'
demands as "Willis Werkstatt" over here - but chances are that you never
heard, and will never hear of "Willis Werkstatt" all your life (Both
names are fictional, of course).
> I understand your feelings, but the way you've been voicing them, they tend to
> upset more people in a negative feeling than being sympathetic to your needs,
> and that is just giving an overall negative effect.
I am fully aware that a lot of people are not used to and therefor
shocked by honest, open, strainght-to-the-point statements, and that
some of them can't cope with people who call a mistake a mistake. I feel
deeply sorry for them, as they have lost a vital communication function.
The worst mistake is always the mistake not found or ignored. Open
communication could have prevented a lot of desasters in the past.
yours, Christian Treczoks
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Hello!
Yes, I appreciate what LEGO has done for me (me, being an AFOL, as I am only
entitled to speak for myself) and I really like many of LEGO Direct’s products.
I simply love the concept “LEGO system” and that’s what I’m grateful for as well
as for everything that TLC has ever issued to support this system concept.
And as much as I appreciate LEGO for everything they did for the system, I
dislike everythink they did to weaken this system. Changing well-established
colours is something that weakens the system. That bothers me. And I will
express my feelings towards anything that bothers me whenever I feel like it.
Lugnet is not meant to be a Praise Simply Everything That Is LEGO Club as far as
I understand it.
I understand that somebody who started his LEGO-life with CA bricks and only 5
colours of which 3 used to be rare has different standards about what is making
LEGO great than somebody like me who was born only in 1977. The timeframe that’s
important for me is from 1978 (as sets from this year were still availanble when
I was old enough to get them) till 2003. Everything that was released since 2004
cannot be much appreciated by me because there was that little change that
changed about everything for me. OK, that sound’s pathetic. However, maybe in
500 years from now I will be at ease with LEGO’s change of the system. Has the
Catholic Church gotten over Luther’s little negligible unimportant and
forgettable attempt to change something, yet?
As for praising what Jake McKee has done for us: Well, I’m glad we have people
like Jake at TLC who work for the so called AFOL community. I appreciate what
they do, I don’t disregard their efforts and I’m greatful whenever these efforts
yield anything that helps me with my LEGO hobby. But I don’t know how hard those
people are working nor do I see everything they do and bring us is helping me
with my LEGO hobby so I’m not constantly praising them. They are doing their job
and I believe they are doing their job in the best manner they are able to.
That’s honourable but it should be taken for granted as well. Are you not doing
your job as good as you can? Do you expect to be constantly praised for doing
so?
Reading Lugnet it seems as if there is an unwritten law or gentlemen’s
agreement that every post must contain at least one “Jake does a magnificent
job”-statement. Sometimes this constant apple-polishing bothers me more than the
never ending complains about complains about complaining complainers.
Bye
Jojo
Lugnet member #693
My BrickShelf folder
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In lugnet.lego, Johannes Koehler wrote:
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OK, that sound’s
pathetic. However, maybe in 500 years from now I will be at ease with LEGO’s
change of the system. Has the Catholic Church gotten over Luther’s little
negligible unimportant and forgettable attempt to change something, yet?
|
Did you just compare the Catholic Church and the Protestant Revolution to
Lego and the color change?
Are you the same guy who runs around on Slashdot and compares college kids being
busted for pirating music to the civil rights movement of the 60’s?
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Hello!
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Did you just compare the Catholic Church and the Protestant Revolution to
Lego and the color change?
|
Sort of.
| |
Are you the same guy who runs around on Slashdot and compares college kids
being busted for pirating music to the civil rights movement of the 60’s?
|
You must be mistaking me for somebody else. I am the guy who starts a posting
with “hello” and closes it with “bye”. And who are you?
Bye
Jojo
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