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David Eaton wrote: <...snip interesting set of propositions...> (...) This is closest to the general Unitarian Universalist Christian theology (I say "general" because UU theology doesn't require a single answer). However there are some possible (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: <snip> (...) Note the distinction Frank is making... he is asserting that the *debate* is worthless. Not that christianity, in and of itself, is worthless, per se. If something cannot be proven or (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Exactly. Which is one thing I'm looking for. Supportable flaws in my reasoning using reasoning, not emotion. I don't care if it's from a Christian or not. My initial post served a few functions. A. To test whether or not the Christian debate (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) My point is that if the X (which really can be any group - I've just been picking on Christians because they are the most visible here) say "Our way is right, and you must not question it, just accept it." (which is how I read much of what has (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) You're right. When I read Frank's para, above, I did an un-shorthanding where "worthless"=="not likely to have a clean resolution, and likely to go on for a while" (not to be confused with my own use of worthless...) You've explained how you (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) As far as I'm concerned, my "conclusions" (our definitions on what exactly those conclusions are would undoubtedly differ) are supported by "debate and critical thinking". If you refuse to accept anything Biblical however, then yes, the debate (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) It's not simply a matter of refusing The Bible; what Tom is (and others are) asking is that The Bible not be taken as proof of God, since The Bible is only valid as such proof if one accepts it as the Word of God, which is circular. What if I (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) I believe you'll have a hard time demonstrating that to my satisfaction. (...) I don't accept that every asserted fact in the bible is the literal truth. I don't even accept that every asserted fact in the bible is allegorically true. But I do (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes: <big snip> (...) No. 8-) SRC (Currently working on a more in-depth answer) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Thought we cleared this up??? Elvis is alive and well and living in Las Vegas. ++Lar (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) _Somewhat_ circular, yes, but the Bible isn't the sole "proof of God". The most obvious evidence of the Creator being His creation. SRC (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) It is *entirely* circular to say that The Bible is proof of God at all. Now we're just sound-byting each other, but asserting that "creation" at large is proof of Christianity's God is circular again and hardly conclusive. I am willing to (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Exactly! And this typed message in my hand is the proof! Dave! (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Any circularity whatever is sufficient to disqualify a particular item of evidence. (...) No one in this forum (or elsewhere) has yet demonstrated a proof to my satisfaction using this basis, although it's been tried. I feel like a taxonomy of (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Agreed-- once a fundamental level of subjectivity has been reached, no further progress can be made. My only nitpick was in your saying that the debate itself was worthless, which I would argue it isn't, since exposing those fundamental (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I think the argument goes something like: 'God will show Himself to you if you are faithful/willing to listen. You, posessing free will may not be open to His presentation of Himself, and even if you are (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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David Eaton wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> Hey Dave, Dave! et al. You are absolutely correct. And while I find these discussions interesting (when I am able to squeeze in the time), they are a bit unsatisfying, because we usually talking apples and (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Nitpick, for things in general, that's only sufficient to show that they are "likely" to be true. We used to think that indivisible atoms were likely to be true. They gave good predictions and were a good tool. Now we know they're not, but we (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Fair question. I can speak for no one else but myself, an agnostic who's pretty convinced but not 100% certain there is no god. For myself, I would require objective verifiable evidence. Alleged miracles, things that cannot currently be (...) (24 years ago, 22-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) Quite so-- thanks :) Actually perhaps the correct thing to say is that by the objectivist viewpoint: "Something can ONLY *BE* true if ...." or more to the point: "If something is NOT ...., then it is NOT true." (...) Oh? Actually, I rather (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Remember though, that that kind of evidence is by definition not possible, so it's true that there would be no way to convince you. (...) I was just thinking that, if I were God, how *would* I convince you that I existed? (and how much LEGO I (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Sadly, I fear the answer is just about yes, going by what I think you define as God. But really what we've got to do is define 'God' first, because I may be wrong. In fact, depending on what you define as 'God', I may in fact already believe (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) I would simply define God as a single Entity which created the universe. We all instinctively long to be united with that Entity. I would then go on to state that that Entity entered time and space in the human form of Jesus Christ, in order (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Since I point that out in the next paragraph but one, you can be sure I was aware of it. A danger of starting to respond before you read the whole thing... :-) as Paul B pointed out. In fact, "unconvincability" is kind of the whole point of (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) I personally would certainly not include "we all instinctively long to be united with that Entity" in the definition, as that seems an (unproven and highly dubious) attribute of *us*, not of God. Why muddy the definition up with that other (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Rather as I expected-- an entity, seperate to ourselves-- having created what we know of as this universe, including ourselves, and capable of enacting or creating anything therin or similar to, and quite possibly, anything at all. (...) How (...) (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Don't know what made me think of this just now, but when I first saw the thread entitled "LP point 1", etc, I had interpreted the LP as "Larry Pieniazek" rather than "Libertarian Party". :) DaveE (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Is that from something? Chris (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) No, I made it up as an example of the sort of "miracle" one sometimes hears proffered, but exaggerated in the mundane direction for effect. ++Lar (24 years ago, 23-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) Do we? What makes you think this? (...) Skepticism is GOOD. However, I don't think cynicism is good ;-) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) I think science/society seeks to understand "creation". I don't think being united with creation is really a global aim. That said, could it not be argued that we are part of creation? Scott A (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What Would It Take? (was:Re: Problems with Christianity)
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(...) There's merit in that argument. Certainly we are "part of the universe" since we reside in it, observe it, are affected by it, and effect things within it. The problem is that "creation" carries a connotation of it being an act of volition. (...) (24 years ago, 24-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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(...) (URL) suspect it got lost in the Christmas/NewYear holiday rush, as there was no reply to it. It's also possibile that David no longer wishes to continue the discussion - that it's run its course. I don't mind either continuing it or dropping (...) (24 years ago, 11-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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