Subject:
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Re: Israel and the Palestinians ( WasRe: When is a website "independent" and when is it "part of"?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:28:21 GMT
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Viewed:
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535 times
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message
news:G2uJ31.KFo@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > I did not really intend this to be a Palestinian V Israeli debate, that • always
> > ends in looking levels of wrongness. However, if the current leader in • Iraq or
> > the former leader of serbia were to use the same methods - how would that • be
> > treated internationally? I wonder?
>
> Are you comparing Barak, a democratically elected leader of a democratic • state
> that tolerates dissent and has a free press and the rule of law, and
> mechanisms to carry out investigations of wrongdoing and a justice system • that
> administers justice fairly, and all that it implies... are you comparing • Barak
> with Sadam Hussein or Milosevich, or with any other random dictator?
I suppose I am. What other country uses tanks and gunships to quell civil
unrest? I can't remember the UK ever firing rockets into residential areas
in the riots in the UK back in the 80's (where police were killed) or in NI?
Scott A
>
> I'm just asking here, because if you are, if you really don't think • there's
> any difference here, then you're more clueless than I thought. • (surprising, I
> know, I already think you're pretty clueless, but I may have actually
> underestimated that level of cluelessness on your part)
>
> And if you aren't, what is your point exactly?
>
> Look. I'm one of the people that thinks that setting up Israel was a bad • *bad*
> BAD idea in the first place. I'm one of the people that thinks that the • entire
> mideast mess is more the fault of the UK than of anyone else. I'm not by • any
> means an Israeli sympathiser. Israel was forced into existance where it • should
> not have been, there is NO race or group or ethnicity that has a clear cut
> claim on Palestine or on any particular part of the territory, and
> partitioning Palestine was the biggest mistake those Fleet Street (or • wherever
> the foreign ministry bozos sat at the time) losers ever made. Bigger than
> India and Pakistan, even.
>
> Palestine should never have been partitioned. No amount of subdividing • will
> work, no amount of carving off pieces of land will satisfy one group or • the
> other. All of Palestine should have been ruled by a coalition goverment
> composed of all ethnicities and the UN should have forced all ethnicities • to
> come to some accomodation, using a secular government that favored no • religion.
>
> BUT, what's done is done. Palestine WAS partitioned by those UK bozos into • a
> Palestinian state and a Jewish state. The Palestinian state, Jordan, is • not
> exactly democratic, not exactly free, but it's better than Syria or any of • a
> half dozen other arab states near it (who repress Palestinians almost as • badly
> as they repress Jews and Christians). Israel is a democratic country with • a
> rule of law and it is far better to be an Muslim in Israel than it is to • be a
> Jew in any Arab country you'd care to name, even Jordan, or even in Arafat
> administered territory.
>
> What has happened of late, on the israeli side, if it involves excessive • use
> of force, will be investigated and dealt with. Can you say the same for • the
> Hezbollah? They're not going to investigate the use of excessive force! • Heck
> no, they consider any use of force to be not quite enough. Can you say the
> same for Arafat's thugs in police uniforms? I don't think so.
>
> So drop the line that says that Israel is some sort of bad guy in this • latest,
> it won't wash. The bad guy is the US for forcing Israel to negotiate with
> terrorists and thugs. Do you normally negotiate with your assailant and • tell
> them that it's OK to carve off your finger and your ear but would they • mind
> not carving out your heart? Seems laugable, doesn't it?
>
> Israel has gotten, and continues to get, a raw deal in the world media, I • have
> no idea why.
>
> Having said all that I say again, Israel has no right to exist, it was • imposed
> on the region, but you can't unmake an omlette, especially by shooting the
> diners.
>
> ++Lar
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