Subject:
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Re: The skinny on Jenin, the European Press
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:45:11 GMT
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Viewed:
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798 times
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"John" <John@TCLTC.org> wrote in message news:GwzKCL.HHp@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > You don't have proof then!
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you trying to *bait* me?
> > > >
> > > > No, just expressing my view.
> > >
> > > What possible "proof" could I provide that would change your mind?
> >
> > Let?s start with a little more than your say-so.
>
> Forget it.
OK, so you can’t back your allegation.
>
> > > None; a
> > > useless exercise which I choose to ignore.
>
> > >
> > > If by "balanced" you mean that the European press is more apt to present the
> > > "human" side of the Palestinian plight, than I do. The US *is* fixed on
> > > terrorism, and for good reason. Trying to sell the "human" side of those who
> > > would terrorize is a hard sell in this country right now.
> >
> > There you go again, inferring all Palestinians are terrorists.
>
> No, I inferred that *some* Palestinians are terrorists, because some *are*.
> Can *you* tell the difference between a non-terrorist Palestinian and a
> terrorist one?
No, but I can’t tell the difference between non-terrorist “united-statesman”
and a
terrorist one either. Do you think everyone in the USA should be arrested
without evidence as the they may be “terrorists”???. Do you think Timothy
McViegh’s neighbourhood should have been rocketed? I expect you don’t.
> t is *their* choice to blurr the distinction-- let them
> *renounce* terrorism and their own who would terrorize.
When they do, Israel does not listen.
>
>
> The USA is
> > "fixed on
> > terrorism" as it has only just woken up to it. Much of Europe has been
> > suffering from its effects since the 60's or before. Also, Europe avoids the
> > absolutist view of the world you and Bush Jr share.
>
> Yes, Scott, and I see how effectively Europe's world view has dealt with it.
It’s a hunch, but I’m pretty sure terrorist acts in Europe are on the
decline. They certainly are in the UK.
> You all don't have the moral courage to take a stand against it, because that
> would be judgemental. And so you tolerate it for 40 odd years....
I think we have “taken a stand against it”. If this were about “moral
courage”, your country would not have been supporting terror for so long. If
this were about “moral courage” Bush Jr would stop handing out weapons to
the likes of Sharon. (He’d be better to invest the 2.5-3.0 BILLION DOLLRS in
education or health…. Or maybe even farm subsidies) The UK has the moral
courage not to sell weapons to Sharon to use in the occupied territories. No
doubt you think “moral courage” is dropping “smart bombs” on Afghanistan –
killing a few thousand innocents to save a lesser number of US troops? You
can call that “moral courage” if you wish, I have my own view.
>
> I wonder if the UK would just take an attack that leveled Buckingham Palace in
> stride, or would she "wake up".
The UK has suffered many terrorist atrocities (including the murder of at
least one member of the royal family, elected politicians and an attack
which almost wiped out the whole of our government). We knew who planned
these attacks, but simply imprisoning them without a fair trial merely feeds
the problem. It took us a while to get it right, but in the end we figured
out they way to stop the terror was to work within the law.
>
> Personally, I find it
> > rather ironic that a key ally in the USA's "war on terror" is Pakistan - a
> > known sponsor of terror, which has nuclear capability!
>
> Why so? I think I remember you accusing the US of sponsoring terror as well,
> so what's your point?
My point is clear.
> >
> > >
> > > Even Arafat is calling for the end of Palestinian terror (if he is sincere,
> > > which he could quite possibly not be). It is really getting out of hand--
> > > murder bombings almost daily?!
> >
> > I expect he is also calling for an end to Israeli terror?
>
> Troll.
No, an honest question. Do you have an answer?
> >
> > >
> > > I'll tell you what needs to happen. The *PA* needs to start moving on these
> > > terrorists and start taking them out. Why must the job be left to Israel? It
> > > is these attacks which deny Palestinian hopes of peace with Israel. Why can't
> > > the PA and Israel join together to end the terror? (Unless, of course, the PA
> > > is *behind* it)
> >
> > Will Israel allow the PA into its towns and cities to find Israeli
> > extremists? To arrest members of the IDF?
>
> Troll.
Do you deny there are Israeli extremists? Do you claim that the IDF always
respect human rights? I expect you don’t.
> >
> > Personally, I think withdrawing to the pre-'67 borders would have a better
> > result.
>
> Let's suppose tomorrow that there instantly are Jewish and Palestinian states
> conforming to the '67 borders. What kind of a state do you imagine the
> Palestinian one to be? God help the Palestinians if they ever get what they
> want, because then they will have no one left to blame for all of their
> problems that they will still have.
I see. So Israel is treating a people like garbage for there own good!
Why not give them a chance? Why not give them back their land, and see what
they make of it?
> >
>
> > > Palestinian terrorists have painted Israel into a corner from which she cannot
> > > and will not move-- it is up to the Palestinians to make the first move.
> >
> >
> > I find this analogy rather ironic.
>
> Of course, because all of your beliefs about this conflict are backwards.
No, because it is Palestinians who are in the corner.
> >
> > > If the Palestinians had any guts, they'd fight against *their own* for peace
> > > (if indeed this is what they really want).
> >
> > I?m sure they do want peace;
>
> Really. And what leads you to that conclusion? The fact that they continually
> send murder bombers to slaughter innocent Israelis?
Who is “they”? I’m talking about ordinary Palestinians, not Hamas!
> If there were such a thing
> as a playbook of peace, I doubt one would find that strategy contained in it.
>
> Fact is, no one can really tell what they want, except by what they *do*. I
> see them harboring, recruiting, training and unleashing terrorists, not taking
> action to thwart them.
Who is “they”? Again, I’m talking about ordinary Palestinians, not Hamas!
>
> When will you get it? This all has nothing to do with a Palestinian state, but
> everything to do with Islamic terrorists. As unpleasant as it may sound, they
> must be eliminated. All of them. Where ever they are-- West Bank, Syria,
> Pakistan, Iraq, Iran. It's a simple as that. Or they will eliminate us.
Why is it just “Islamic” terrorists who are the problem terrorists. What
about the others? What about the guy (or gal) who attacked the USA with
anthrax? What about the IRA/ Sinn Fein who actually raised money for the 911
charity? What did you do about your nation’s support for “Islamic Terror”
pre-911? What are you doing about your country’s indirect support of
“Islamic Terror” sponsored by Pakistan? Where is your “moral courage”?
With all respect, it appears to me that you don’t understand the difference
between “moral courage” & “self interest”.
I’m against terror. I don’t care if its Islamic or not. However, I’m also
pro justice. What fuels the situation in the ME is not Islamic terrorists
(although they do exploit it), but a deep and justified sense of injustice.
If Israel were to return to the pre-67 borders and the Palestinians were
given the chance to build a viable state perhaps life would be a little
better for us all.
The situation in Israel has more to do with intransigence, extremism and
belligerence within Israeli politics than it does “Islamic Terror” – wake up
to that fact. Wake up to the fact that Likud has done nothing but delay and
destroy the peace process.
In my last post I asked you this:
“Israel's history shows clearly that terror can work - do you deny that?”
I would appreciate an answer.
Scott A
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Message has 1 Reply:
Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: The skinny on Jenin, the European Press
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| (...) Forget it. (...) No, I inferred that *some* Palestinians are terrorists, because some *are*. Can *you* tell the difference between a non-terrorist Palestinian and a terrorist one? It is *their* choice to blurr the distinction-- let them (...) (22 years ago, 31-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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