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(...) I agree that you can't always hold the people responsible to what the leaders do, but wouldn't you agree that sometimes when it's clear that the leader is doing what the people want, the people _should_ be held responsible? (...) nod... but (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So far I think we're all on the same page. (...) How has this been made apparent? This is not apparent to me. What is apparent to me is that they want territories that Israel stole in the 60s back and they aren't willing to compromise on it. (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barak offer Arafat in one of the "agreements" a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza, including a capital in east Jerusalem? and was turned down, because Arafat wanted more? (...) well, I can see why (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who can say why the offer was rejected? Arafat is a Grade A loser and the Palestinians should get rid of him. At the same time, I saw it as an act of bad faith on the part of the Israelis to vote Sharon into office considering the sort of (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have to question your evidence of such desire on the part of the people. Here in the Bay Area of California I often express myself as I see fit, I feel free and safe to do so. When I lived in a suburbs of Chicago I felt less free to discuss (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think this is false, can you justify it? Let's just look at one front. The claimed issue for engaging Syria was that Israeli farmers were being harassed by the Syrians - they (the farmers) made a presentation to the Israeli cabinet which (...) (23 years ago, 25-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If only the Palestinians lived in a Democracy and could get rid of him. I think perhaps this is the problem. As I understand it most, if not all, Arab nations are not Democracies. The people in those states know only what their leaders tell (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Even if Arafat had accepted Barak's offer, do you really think the Israeli public would have? Remember, he still had to put it to a referendum. Barak was basically gambling. Scott A (23 years ago, 27-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is that your "informed" impartial opinion? It doesn't bother me that Liberals have certain ideas and opinions-- that's their right. It's when they try and pass them off as impartial and unbiased that sends me. You claim to not have taken sides (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am sure Scott can speak for himself, but I can't see why questioning the political motives of either side betrays a leaning for one side or the other. Further, I imagine that Scott is working against the perception that news information in (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Either side, or just one? betrays a leaning for one side or the (...) That's news to me. The US media isn't "pro-Israel", that's for sure. (...) 1. Scott (and you, I'd imagine) sympathize with the Palestinians. 2. The Palestinians are (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is a very thinly qualified attack against myself, and obviously more pointedly against Scott. And I DO take offense that you equate any questioning of your unbelievably myopic viewpoints as being the equivalent of siding with terrorists (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Even when that is your own country? Scott A (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) John, After you have done that, perhaps you can reply to this: (URL) A (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Could you clarify what you mean by "I will torch this forum" ? That's a rather worrisome remark. As I said before this is a wasted breath exercise. Surely this will get me another (oh so useful) *sigh* from Scott, but in this case it is *all* (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Where? and obviously more (...) Then refute it and move on. Really, it's outrageous. I expect an apology from you as (...) Then just say it. I said I would imagine you to be one. Never said you were, and now you have set the record straight. (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Time to wrap this up. This whole thing started because you took me to task when I equated the Palestinians with the PLO. I still say that if the Palestinians continue to support PLO terrorists, they are as culpable as terrorists themselves. If (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It was just an oblique reference to what is termed a flame war. My point was merely that if John was going to entirely avoid making any substantive comments, and instead make only personal attacks. I would give him a flame war the likes of (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can't remember ever saying that. I may have pondered what Israel would do if USA stopped giving them ~$2500000000.00 per year (...) I can't remember ever saying that the US "was to blame for 9-11". I suggest you retract that statement. Scott (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, it won't ever happen, so what's the point in bringing it up? I may ponder what would happen if Arafat suddenly converted to Judaism, but it's rather a silly notion and not worth discussion. (...) You asked me if I knew why it happened, (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have no need to: Scott Said: "What about you, do you know *WHY* 911 happened?" John Said: "Look. If you are going to sit there and insinuate that somehow *we* are to blame for 9-11, you are an idiot." Scott Said: "Not my point. Since 911, (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John, this is a rather unique record of the thread. For the record, I did not simply say I was "sympathetic with the Palestinians". I, in fact, said: "Although I do support the right of self defence, I am fundamentally a pacifist in nature. I (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) George Bush Sr. did actually threaten to cut the US fundings to avoid further Israeli settlements. I don't know if there were any actual cuts, though. I think that with the major US pro-Israeli opinion, it is unrealistic to think that there (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) (Sorry about the butchered pasting): You: mean that I oppose the actions of both "PLO terrorists" and the Israeli > state. My views on human rights and international law, together with my > understanding of recent middle-east history, leads me (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Already did. B-bye John (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm sure Israel is gratful for your support. ;) (...) Life must be so simple in your (little) black & white world! Scott A (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I happen to agree with this viewpoint.It's nice and tidy and has a nice absolute finality to it. No equivocating. But it has a big problem. It opens one up to questioning one's own motives. People who want to assail one's position will (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Isn't that merely deflection; skirting the issue at hand? I talk about Palestininan terrorism, and they shift the focus to *my* supposed support of terrorism. How is that germane? Merely as an attempt to discredit me as a hypocrite? (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh ya, I agree. But it's what you're up against here in this newsgroup. Until you can make this case (at the meta level), you're stuck. And no one here has been at all effective at making that case in the past. c.f. what happened to me when I (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Life must be so deep and profound in your (intellectual) gray one. -John (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) hmm. That explains the rain today ;) Scott A Rain: (URL) (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) John, You said: "Anyone who supports the actions of terrorists is just as culpable as the terrorists themselves." I demonstrated that your tax dollars and your countrymen support "terror". I also shattered you allusion that Israel is a nation (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Edinburgh. -John (23 years ago, 30-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's odd, it’s my understanding that it is against the law to fund raise for the IRA in the USA... I may be wrong(?). By "repressive governments", do you include those who imprison suspects without trial? Interestingly, the UK will not hand (...) (23 years ago, 1-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Me neither, but I know they have halted some arms shipments in the past. (...) I'll end this with these words from Mosh Dayan: "Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the (...) (23 years ago, 1-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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