Subject:
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Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:00:52 GMT
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Viewed:
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1412 times
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This debate is going nowhere, and no one's opinion is going to change here.
But you say there is convincing evidence that there is god, and yet I have
seen any. Let me put my opinion this way. I will believe that there is a
god when he shows himself, to everyone everywhere. I will not go by what an
ancient book says. I'm amazed that you said that the study of science
presupposes that there is a god. But I'm glad you wrote about that because
it gave me a good laugh. Science has disproved two of the supposed
theological events masterminded by god. You said that you believe god did
evolution all by himself without a middle man, and without 'fiddling'
around. I cannot believe that anyone denies the proof of evolution, even
the Pope himself has offically recognised it. I'm sorry, but there is
substantial evidence that it took 4 million years plus to get our species
where we are today, simply a primate, just like gorillas and chimpanzees.
And there is scientific proof that the universe that was created not by god.
Also, there are many things that we still haven't learned about the Big Bang
or evolution, which we may learn. Yet I see no proof that god did either of
that. You also said that god is beyond our understanding, which makes no
sense. Those who worship god would likely say that they understand him and
his ways, or at least try to understand, wouldn't they? But if he's beyond
our understanding as you say, wouldn't he be beyond our comprehension? Why
didn't evolution stop about 130,000 year ago before the Neanderthals began
to use burial practices, for whatever reason, maybe because of god?
Adam
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ian Warfield writes:
> I'll try to address both Adam's and Ross's posts at the same time.
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Adam Murtha writes:
> > Hi Ross.
> >
> > I would have thought if there was any conclusive evidence for the existence
> > of god that the christian belief wouldn't crumble, but be elevated to new
> > heights of wisdom and logic.
>
> Exactly. I believe that too. As I mentioned in my other post, I can put my
> hands on a huge amount of evidence for the existence of God - all
> circumstantial, and none of it 100% conclusive, but incredibly convincing
> nonetheless.
>
> > The statement that if god exists he, is beyond our understanding, is good
> > for those who have faith, but to me sounds like another excuse. I've heard
> > the arguments that evolution is the tool of god etc. but again, an excuse.
> > And until it is proven otherwise, I will continue to believe what extensive
> > scientific studies have shown.
>
> As I said before, faith is necessary to any religion. In Christianity, we
> have a reason why we need faith (postulate 2, so that we can maintain our
> free will of choice). Science does "prove" the existence of God. Not
> conclusively, or else there would be no room left for faith, but still to
> satisfy nearly anyone.
>
> The very *study of science* itself presupposes the existence of God to for
> it to work! Why?
> -Rationality: Science assumes that there is a rational explanation for
> everything.
> -Logic: Science assumes that by studying details and making observations
> about an unknown phenomenon, that phenomenon can be described. The whole
> follows logically and naturally from the part.
> -Coherence: Science requires evidence for proof. If evidence contradicts
> existing explanations, they must be thrown out, because the explanation must
> be coherent with all explanations.
>
> These all presuppose that the universe is inherently ordered. If the
> universe had haphazardly sprung into existence by itself, there would be no
> outside governing force to make it behave logically, rationally, or
> coherently. Right and wrong would have no meaning, and there would be no
> guarantee that a phenomenon would have an intelligible order to it. Science
> cannot function in a chaotic universe.
>
> Point by point, here is the support for the above:
> -Rationality: God is by definition rational - there is a reason for
> everything. He is a God of Order, not Chaos.
> -Logic: God makes His nature known in what He creates. Each of His
> creations reflect Himself, for He cannot create something totally and
> absolutely without relation or relevance to His nature. Thus, every detail
> observed about God must reflect and describe God.
> -Coherence: God is by definition coherent. He cannot contradict Himself or
> do anything foreign or contrary to His nature. He is internally consistent.
>
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ross Crawford writes:
> > > Hi Adam, and greetings from Australia!
> > >
> > > I don't believe in god.
>
> I hope that you change your mind!
>
> > >
> > > But for many years I thought I did, and came to realise that following god
> > > *must* be based on faith.
>
> Exactly. While doubts remain, faith must provide the impetus for a belief
> in God.
>
> > > As soon as any conclusive eveidence for his existence shows up, the whole
> > > christian belief will crumble. And simply put, those who believe in such a
> > > god must explain everything in terms of that faith.
> > >
> > > Thus god cannot intervene in any way that makes it obvious to everyone that
> > > it's god intervening, or he instantly loses all his followers.
>
> Adam and I disagree; see above.
>
> > >
> > > As to the creationist thing, well that's been debated here (and many other
> > > places) before, and will be again, but I'm happy with the possibility that:
> > >
> > > 1. god, if he exists, is an entity beyond our understanding, so may in fact
> > > be consistent with "proof" that no being (as per our knowledge of beings)
> > > could have created the universe;
>
> He *Himself* is beyond our understanding, but His infiniteness can manifest
> itself in finite ways that we can understand.
>
> > > 2. evolution may be the tool that god devised to create the universe
> > > (including the world & man).
>
> Possibly. But I doubt God wasted His time by fiddling around with the laws
> of chance and engineering evolution; that would have introduced a middleman.
> I think He did it Himself.
>
> > >
> > > Dunno if this all makes sense or not...
>
> Debate brings out the truth. Keep debating until it makes sense :).
>
> > >
> > > ROSCO
>
> --Ian
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